SampleTank 2XL and Live Crashes

[dn83]

I know this is an old problem, but I'm posting to keep the issue alive and to see if anyone has found a solution of any kind, or has new information. In addition to posting, I have sent e-mails to both Ableton and SampleTank/IK support.

I own registered, full-versions of Live 5 and 6 and SampleTank 2XL. (See my setup below.) With SampleTank loaded into Live, I experience frequent crashes, so frequent that I simply cannot use SampleTank within Live.

Live is my primary sequencing program/DAW and SampleTank 2XL is my primary sampler/instrument bank/synth engine, so like many of you, I really need a solution. Live and SampleTank are both awesome tools and they should work together. Like others, I've paid too much money for these two applications to not work - it's very discouraging.

The crashes are not totally random; I am able to generate a crash by attempting to jump to another point in the arrangement during playback, or when I try to "scrub" playback, using any scrub area. And if I avoid the action just mentioned, SampleTank still eventually crashes Live, seemingly at random.

When a crash occurs, my computer generates a report with the following:


AppName: live 6.0.3.exe AppVer: 1.0.0.1 ModName: live 6.0.3.exe
ModVer: 1.0.0.1 Offset: 007fc62f


Event Type: Error
Event Source: Application Error
Event Category: None
Event ID: 1000
Date: 1/11/2007
Time: 6:25:31 PM
User: N/A
Computer: MUSE
Description:
Faulting application live 6.0.3.exe, version 1.0.0.1, faulting module live 6.0.3.exe, version 1.0.0.1, fault address 0x007fc62f.

For more information, see Help and Support Center at http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
Data:
0000: 41 70 70 6c 69 63 61 74 Applicat
0008: 69 6f 6e 20 46 61 69 6c ion Fail
0010: 75 72 65 20 20 6c 69 76 ure liv
0018: 65 20 36 2e 30 2e 33 2e e 6.0.3.
0020: 65 78 65 20 31 2e 30 2e exe 1.0.
0028: 30 2e 31 20 69 6e 20 6c 0.1 in l
0030: 69 76 65 20 36 2e 30 2e ive 6.0.
0038: 33 2e 65 78 65 20 31 2e 3.exe 1.
0040: 30 2e 30 2e 31 20 61 74 0.0.1 at
0048: 20 6f 66 66 73 65 74 20 offset
0050: 30 30 37 66 63 36 32 66 007fc62f
0058: 0d 0a ..


(Same information, as "words"):


Event Type: Error
Event Source: Application Error
Event Category: None
Event ID: 1000
Date: 1/11/2007
Time: 6:25:31 PM
User: N/A
Computer: MUSE
Description:
Faulting application live 6.0.3.exe, version 1.0.0.1, faulting module live 6.0.3.exe, version 1.0.0.1, fault address 0x007fc62f.

For more information, see Help and Support Center at http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
Data:
0000: 6c707041 74616369 206e6f69 6c696146
0010: 20657275 76696c20 2e362065 2e332e30
0020: 20657865 2e302e31 20312e30 6c206e69
0030: 20657669 2e302e36 78652e33 2e312065
0040: 2e302e30 74612031 66666f20 20746573
0050: 66373030 66323663 0a0d


Version 6.0.3 of Live seems to crash less, but I am still virtually unable to use SampleTank within Live. I've tried using SampleTank in Live 5 and I get the same problems. Increasing latency helps, but doesn't resolve the issue either. I've also tried using different sample rates and turning the Multicore/Multi-processor option on and off, in addition to many other things and nothing helps.

So, is this very similar for everyone else experiencing this issue? I realize that this is a complicated and frustrating problem, given that this is and issue between Live and a third-party plug-in. However, Live and SampleTank are both widely-used, so they should work together. Live is an amazing program, as is SampleTank, so it would be great for them to work together reasonably. Please post your contributions. Hopefully, this issue will be resolved soon.


Doni

[dkcalifornia]

Here is the copy of my e-mail:

Hey team,

I'm sure you've heard this one before (I've found it on Google a couple of times). I'm a software developer myself, so curiosity go the better of me and I tried to narrow down this problem the best I could with as many variables removed as I could.

First the configuration stuff:
Hardware/OS:
EMU 1820M running 44khz, ASIO mode. (latest drivers, etc. from EMU)
Axiom 61 controller (although this happened with my Korg controller too)
PC Athlon 64, 2.4 Ghz, 1 G ram, 200 G Hard disk.
Windows XP Pro (32-bit version...not doing the 64 bit thing!) SP2, all updates.

Software:
Ableton Live 6.0.3
SampleTank XL 2.2 (also happened with SampleTank XL 2.1)

How to re-create:

For a minimum debug project, I created one MIDI channel, no Aux Returns, no mastering plugs, etc. A Bone Dry SampleTank MIDI channel going to the master outputs.

1. I loaded up SampleTank preset in Loops called "Hip-Hop R'n'B 1 100bpm" into slot 1 in SampleTank.
2. SampleTank prefs are High Quality (although this happens in High Performance too) and Global Sync ON (OFF doesn't seem to fix it either).
3. Create a clip in session view with C2 held for 5 measures (Live tempo is at 120)
4. Trigger Scene 1 (the one with the loop)
5. Trigger Scene 2 (which is all silence).
6. Set the global sync in Live to "none" so that scene launches 'instantly' cut off one scene and starts playing the next.
(Note: If you do this slowly, with the global sync to bars, the problem is less likely to occur, but still can occur)

That's the setup. NOW, I just TORTURE sampletank and live by rapidly switching between scenes 1 and 2.

The sound will be fine and playback is fine while you do this. However, if you then try to close Live (or do a File-New to create a new project), one of the following will happen:

a. CPU will go to 99% and the GUI will hang and never close (or load the new template project if you go that route)
OR
b. Live GUI will instantly go away, but the process live 6.0.3.exe still shows up in task manager. You just can't kill it even with End Process
OR
c. Live GUI will show "a serious error has occurred. Live will shut down when you hit close" (Note: Live actually never shuts down, it just keeps popping up that dialog box everytime you hit Close on the dialog)

IK Multimedia haven't been much help AT ALL. They just say it works fine with everything else and call it a day.

I will not even PRETEND to know what internals of Live are or the complexities involved, but Session view is different from the other DAWs they (IK) in that it lets you CUT OFF sound instantly from one scene for audio and midi devices as you switch to another scene. I'm not sure how you guys handle this programmatically (sending a MIDI Panic maybe?), but SampleTank is just not handling it well! Absynth, V-Station, etc. all handle this with ease, but I bet that SampleTank is either too slow or doing something really weird when you 'cut it off' like that suddenly switching to another scene and back and forth between clips (almost like ST gets out of sync when it doesn't get the notes off and gets a midi panic instead).

I have a project I can send (if required).

[dn83]

Thanks for the post! Yes, I've had the same things happening. Using SampleTank with only one instance and routing it multitimbrally, as you're supposed to, but of course it will also crash with multiple instances. Then, switching quickly between scenes or scrubing playback will instantly crash Live everytime. And yes, sometimes Live will state serious error and that it will close after I click okay, but I click okay and it stays up, or other times, the whole app will just instanly dissapear but remains in task manager. Most of the time though, I get a small application error window, which I close, then Live closes and is usually not present in the task manager, but again, sometimes is, as you mentioned.

As for re-opening Live, sometimes I can simply open it back up as normal, but other times, attempting to re-open Live yields no response and I have to reboot completely, depending on how it crashed. So, at least we can recreate the problem and can narrow it down somewhat.


Now, I actually spent some time this past week playing more with latencies (both hardware and plugin) and I've been able to reduce the number of crashes. What I did was set the latency on my interface to 4ms (192 buffer samples) but then set the PLUGIN latency/buffer size within Live to 64 instead of "As Audio Buffer". For now, this seems to be working pretty well; I'm able to play instruments real-time without many crashes. This appears to have stopped the SampleTank crashes actually, but in Live 6, other things still cause crashes very frequently like even things such as turning the Live metronome on or off, or muting/un-muting Live tracks, or adding/deleting Live effects. So as for Live 6, that aspect seems rather random.

But as for Live 5, the above-mentioned technique seems to resolve the issue comlpetely so far. You will of course need to play around with different latency combinations yourself, depending on your set up, like increasing hardware latency even more and then trying out different plugin buffer sizes within Live. As for now, this is the only hope we have I'm afraid, until either Ableton or IK release an update that resolves this.


Also, I actually received an e-mail reply from IK support over the weekend stating that they "are looking into why certain users of Live [and SampleTank] crash and others don't". So, it seems there is some hope!


doni

[dkcalifornia]

I'll see if I can crash it as easily if I increase the plugin latency.

Thanks for the tip!

Maybe there is hope (if ableton responded with that clue!)

[dkcalifornia]

(at least for now...I'll need more testing).

I went into the audio setup and disabled all of the ASIO input ports.

After that, and a restart, the sample project I could crash with ease (Live & SampleTank) didn't crash no matter how hard I beat on it.

I'll try to beat on it some more and see if it's bulletproof for some reason now...

[dn83]

No problem. Haha, cool - you mean reducing the number of inputs and outputs in Live via the input config and output config in audio setup? Yeah, I forgot to mention that I also recently tweaked my inputs and outputs. I have "1/2 Stereo" as my only active input and for output, none are active except the required 1/2 Stereo output of course. Maybe that has helped a lot too...

Oh yeah, and the same e-mail that I had sent to IK support, I also sent to Ableton support, by the way.

What is your interface's latency currently set at? And your plugin latency in Live? Try increasing your interface's latency (to like, 256 buffer samples) and decreasing Plugin latency in Live (to like 128, 64, or 32 even) and let's see what happens...

[poshook]

only solution for this issue is using Live 4.x

[dn83]

Hahaha...damn. Yeah, well I would probably use Live 4, but I don't own a serial for it, only 5 and 6. Besides, that's kind of unacceptable, don't you think?

[dkcalifornia]

I guess Live 4 has midi VST support?

My hack has worked ok so far. I'm still so nervous about SampleTank that I'm seriously considering UltimateSoundBank Pro (since IK US support sucks).

For now, I freeze and flatten the damned thing right after picking a sound and recording a riff. Wait a minute, I'm dating myself with the term "riff", i guess I mean 'loop'!

Now, if Live starts bombing on me with that it's time to pick up an MPC 500 again!

[poshook]

I used ST2 with Live 4 more than year with no problem. from version 5 and 6 this is a nightmare... I had to change my ST2 for somtehing else (Independence) and no problem ))

I am sure this issue is only on PC WinXP machines. OSX is OK

[dkcalifornia]

What is Independence? I've never heard of that rompler/sampler before.

[poshook]

http://www.yellowtools.us/cp21/cms/index.php?id=307