6.07 (really, all versions): More Sticky Zooming

Josh Von · Post by **Josh Von** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:37 am

Sitting here at 2:30 am trying to get some voiceovers done for a set for broadcast ... deadline morning:

4 audio channels. Bare minium effects (EQ, utility, some verb on the voiceovers).

It doesn't matter if the audio is playing or not.

At certain points during zoom operations -- the entire interface "sticks"

We cannot zoom smoothly, the zoom locks up the entire interface until it unsticks. The closer we zoom the more 'consistantly' it does this ..although its hard to predict exactly when (what resolution) it will or will not do this

I cannot describe the frustration at not being able to do this simple task of zooming in to place voiceover samples, especially considering the following

- this has been a problem with zooming in tight to audio samples as long as I have been using Live. I and many others have noticed this since version 2 ... so thats over 5 years now

- It happens in Clip View in Session; happens in Arrange View as well. The larger the audio samples, the more we see the problem (ie... full length tracks and especially sets like this)

- I'm now on a dual core AMD system with a gig of ram and a MOTU firewire interface, but gear never mattered .. this kind of things happens on every system Ive ever used the program on (and by now, thats a lot)

- We have been reporting it all along and have only seen marginal improvement in this over the years .. and our systems are getting faster and faster

What is it about the way Live handles zooming that is tied to the way it is handling the clips in memory?

We are wondering why this problem is so pervasive and so consistant over the years and why it hasnt been addressed

Sorry but its late and paying clients are depending on me to have this done

Hoping we can count on the sticky zooming and editing type problems to get a serious improvement for Live 7

... right at the moment I am doing everything in my power not to want to take my mouse and plunge it right thru my monitor

(i dont recall that being part of any workarounds for the problem so it probably wouldnt help anyway)

.

Josh Von · Post by **Josh Von** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:08 am

As a correlary to this problem, I'm sure many will recognize this:

Everything we try and do at levels where the zooming is sticky, is also sticky

Cannot accomplish anything without a maddening

de ...

... lay ...

Almost impossible to accomplish work.

.

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:43 pm

Sounds similar to the issue I was having with lots of audio clips in Arrange view greatly making things choppy and jerky. scrolling and zoom had huge lags on them, gets worse the more clips you have in Live. I think it's an overall part of Live, where audio (rightly) gets priority over what we see. Frustrating in studio use though, when you're working fast and need to get done.

kabelton · Post by **kabelton** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:08 pm

hi josh!

yes!!! i dont know why the abletons are releasing versions after versions without fixing this main problem... its unbelievable!

abletoff · Post by **abletoff** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:36 pm

I think there's no excuse with the standardization of graphics hardware in pc/macs and more video ram available and extended chipsets for not fixing this problem. The gui could even be in 3d given the current GPU's power. So it must be something at a deeper code level, but my bet it's it will be all right in Live 7.
Oh and if it isn't why don't address the gPU power to live+cycling devices... it's possible really.

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:37 pm

By any chance have you had the project manager open (even once, now closed...), or does a program re-start improve things at all? Was noticing this having a major effect on program slowness, and I know hoffman2k also has this

Josh Von · Post by **Josh Von** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:47 pm

Tarekith wrote:Sounds similar to the issue I was having with lots of audio clips in Arrange view greatly making things choppy and jerky. scrolling and zoom had huge lags on them, gets worse the more clips you have in Live.

Yes its related and similar. Here is the thing though:

- Take an empty set, with one audio channel, no FX or VSTs anywhere]

Just an audio channel with nothing else

- Now pull in a one or two hour audio sample into a Session slot

Try zooming in on this audio sample in clip view

Do you get a point where it suddenly "sticks" for an instant or two? Then the closer you get it gets more "sticky" and you cant work smoothly?

We've been dealing with this for so long a lot of us have just assumed thats the way it is and its never going to change ...

Unfortunately last nite I had a 3 hour set to edit and master for broadcast today. It was fighting me so hard I lost an hours worth of time, let alone let some creative ideas go because I couldnt accomplish them past the stickness

I think it's an overall part of Live, where audio (rightly) gets priority over what we see.

Yes -- I agree -- somehow it needs to be addressed for production however

Graphics card memory as someone suggested? Is that the key ... is there a problem in the pipeline to the graphics card and is the data choking and getting held up?

And / or do we need a switch in Live that re-balances the priorities somehow to let us work

Frustrating in studio use though, when you're working fast and need to get done.

Cant work with some of these problems, it is horrible inefficient and influences the end result negatively (that is if you dont give up in frustration)

.

Josh Von · Post by **Josh Von** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:52 pm

longjohns wrote:By any chance have you had the project manager open (even once, now closed...), or does a program re-start improve things at all?

No, I almost never ever use the Project Manager unless I'm forced to. Doesn't work for me and most of what I need to do I do without it (easier the old school ways

collect all and save etc )

Hmm not sure if re-starts have an effect or not. I don't think so, the problem immediately starts as soon as you open a fresh set -- even a blank one like I described above

Key:

Larger the sample you are working with, worse it gets.. You dont need multiple samples to reproduce it, you just need one. So:

Problem is proportional to the size of the sample in memory. Which ..again .. goes back to the way Live handles clips in memory

Its all related to the frozen arrange view syndrome / poor editing / glitches and horrible skittering sounds. I still think they have a similar root cause and that is it

(sorry to be the one that is always beating this horse lol but somebody has to do it

)

.

kabelton · Post by **kabelton** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:21 am

Josh Von wrote: Its all related to the frozen arrange view syndrome / poor editing / glitches and horrible skittering sounds. I still think they have a similar root cause and that is it.

Exactly!

p.s.: booting directly into ableton live solved my problems so far...but that's only a workaround.

Josh Von · Post by **Josh Von** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:36 am

kabelton wrote:p.s.: booting directly into ableton live solved my problems so far...but that's only a workaround.

You are using a stripped down version of windows?

What are you doing exactly?

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iain.morland · Post by **iain.morland** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:18 am

My advice: download the 30-day demo of Adobe Audition and use it to finish this project!

kabelton · Post by **kabelton** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:54 pm

Josh Von wrote:
kabelton wrote:p.s.: booting directly into ableton live solved my problems so far...but that's only a workaround.

You are using a stripped down version of windows?

What are you doing exactly?

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