Plug-in delay on busses

[krank]

When routing between busses with plug-ins, I find it impossible to avoid delay. Apparently PDC only works when routing from track to bus to master. Is this correct? Still on Live 5.

[Amaury]

When routing between busses with plug-ins, I find it impossible to avoid delay. Apparently PDC only works when routing from track to bus to master. Is this correct? Still on Live 5.

Hello,

Are you talking about playing back clips, or recording MIDI data to an instrument track that routes to another audio track?

Regards,
Amaury

[krank]

When routing between busses with plug-ins, I find it impossible to avoid delay. Apparently PDC only works when routing from track to bus to master. Is this correct? Still on Live 5.

Hello,

Are you talking about playing back clips, or recording MIDI data to an instrument track that routes to another audio track?

Regards,
Amaury

I'm talking audio from track to return to yet another return, I thought that was evident.

[Amaury]

When routing between busses with plug-ins, I find it impossible to avoid delay. Apparently PDC only works when routing from track to bus to master. Is this correct? Still on Live 5.

Hello,

Are you talking about playing back clips, or recording MIDI data to an instrument track that routes to another audio track?

Regards,
Amaury

I'm talking audio from track to return to yet another return, I thought that was evident.

Hi,

And are you only playing back audio clips, or are you recording audio?

Regards,
Amaury

[krank]

And are you only playing back audio clips, or are you recording audio?

Regards,
Amaury

Playing back audio. Actually, sorry, the trouble I've had lately is from a midi track:

SampleTank2 -> drum bus (to master) -> reverb bus (to master)

[Amaury]

And are you only playing back audio clips, or are you recording audio?

Regards,
Amaury

Playing back audio. Actually, sorry, the trouble I've had lately is from a midi track:

SampleTank2 -> drum bus (to master) -> reverb bus (to master)

Hi,

Make sure the MIDI track is not armed, and also that the 'audio from' of the bus track is set to 'no input' (use the 'audio to' menu of the MIDI track to route to the bus track).

When a track is armed, it is play through optimized, and may go out of sync with the return tracks.

Regards,
Amaury

[krank]

And are you only playing back audio clips, or are you recording audio?

Regards,
Amaury

Playing back audio. Actually, sorry, the trouble I've had lately is from a midi track:

SampleTank2 -> drum bus (to master) -> reverb bus (to master)

Hi,

Make sure the MIDI track is not armed, and also that the 'audio from' of the bus track is set to 'no input' (use the 'audio to' menu of the MIDI track to route to the bus track).

When a track is armed, it is play through optimized, and may go out of sync with the return tracks.

Regards,
Amaury

I appreciate your help - but I'm not sure we understand each other. When I say 'bus' I mean a return track. Consider the following setup:

Midi track -> Audio track (sends only) -> Return 1 (to master) -> Return 2 (to master)

Place a third-party plug-in on either of the two return tracks. Audio is now out of sync.

[Amaury]

I appreciate your help - but I'm not sure we understand each other. When I say 'bus' I mean a return track. Consider the following setup:

Midi track -> Audio track (sends only) -> Return 1 (to master) -> Return 2 (to master)

Place a third-party plug-in on either of the two return tracks. Audio is now out of sync.

Hi,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I do understand the audio path of your setup. The question that remains for me is:

-How is the routing between the MIDI track and the Audio track set? i.e. what does it read in the 'audio to' of the MIDI track, and what does it read in the 'Audio from' of the audio track?

-Is the MIDI track playing clips, or do you play a keyboard or such? Is it monitored, or record armed?

Depending on the monitoring status and In/Out setup, it is possible that a track goes out of sync with the return tracks, because some settings allow a low latency monitoring. That is why I am asking these questions.

Regards,
Amaury

[krank]

I appreciate your help - but I'm not sure we understand each other. When I say 'bus' I mean a return track. Consider the following setup:

Midi track -> Audio track (sends only) -> Return 1 (to master) -> Return 2 (to master)

Place a third-party plug-in on either of the two return tracks. Audio is now out of sync.

Hi,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I do understand the audio path of your setup. The question that remains for me is:

-How is the routing between the MIDI track and the Audio track set? i.e. what does it read in the 'audio to' of the MIDI track, and what does it read in the 'Audio from' of the audio track?

-Is the MIDI track playing clips, or do you play a keyboard or such? Is it monitored, or record armed?

Depending on the monitoring status and In/Out setup, it is possible that a track goes out of sync with the return tracks, because some settings allow a low latency monitoring. That is why I am asking these questions.

Regards,
Amaury

I'm sorry, the example I gave is actually irrelevant as to the first two steps. The same happens when routing straight from a MIDI track (with a VSTi like SampleTank2) to a return track and from this to another return track.

The simplest setup example I can give to illustrate:

MIDI track (sends only) -> Return 1 (to master) -> Return 2 (to master)

Place a VSTi on the MIDI track, and a third-party plug-in on Return 1. Play a MIDI clip. Audio is now out of sync.

No midi tracks were armed in this experiment (ha). Nor monitored.

So the problem is between to two return tracks. I have now succeeed in setting the delay manually to an approximate value. But the problem persists when two or more return tracks are routed to a third - like you would when routing several subgroups to a reverb. Setting the delay compensation manually then becomes a tedious task because of the different plug-ins involved on the subgroup returns.

[Amaury]

I'm sorry, the example I gave is actually irrelevant as to the first two steps. The same happens when routing straight from a MIDI track (with a VSTi like SampleTank2) to a return track and from this to another return track.

The simplest setup example I can give to illustrate:

MIDI track (sends only) -> Return 1 (to master) -> Return 2 (to master)

Place a VSTi on the MIDI track, and a third-party plug-in on Return 1. Play a MIDI clip. Audio is now out of sync.

No midi tracks were armed in this experiment (ha). Nor monitored.

So the problem is between to two return tracks. I have now succeeed in setting the delay manually to an approximate value. But the problem persists when two or more return tracks are routed to a third - like you would when routing several subgroups to a reverb. Setting the delay compensation manually then becomes a tedious task because of the different plug-ins involved on the subgroup returns.

Hi,

So, the MIDI track is set to 'sends only', and both send A and send B are 'opened', so the sound reaches return A and return B. Then, putting a plugin on one of the return, the two returns are out of sync. Is that right?

I just tried and could not reproduce the problem, using 6.0.7. May I ask: is Delay Compensation ON? Sorry if this is obvious, but better to start with the obvious..

Regards,
Amaury

[mattianlaseppia]

if i route a return to a audio track used as a group, i have delays.

i usually do that because i route the audio effects of voice in the voice group, well sometimes, not always.

but when i do that i have to use some audio tracks to do that in a strange routing scheme..

[Amaury]

if i route a return to a audio track used as a group, i have delays.

i usually do that because i route the audio effects of voice in the voice group, well sometimes, not always.

but when i do that i have to use some audio tracks to do that in a strange routing scheme..

Hi,

Did you set the input of the audio track that is the 'group' no 'no input'? That should help in that case..

Regards,
Amaury

[mattianlaseppia]

always no input, i think is a live bug

[Angstrom]

I remember a post from one of the other Ableton staff about this PDC issue with sends.

although things may be calculated differently now, this was for Live5 I think.

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26701

Hi all,

this is a known issue resulting from the fact that send-to-send routings are feedback connections.

I'll try to explain it: When Live does the calculations for delay compensation it assumes that all send volumes in all player and send tracks are turned on, meaning that there is feedback between all sends. Delays in a feedback signal path cannot be compensated, it's simply impossible. So Live must ignore connections between sends for the delay compensation calculation. As a result, when you "chain" send tracks as described, delays in send tracks in the "middle" of the chain won't be compensated.

A solution could be to re-compensate delays whenever a send knob is turned from or to -inf dB, so that only audible feedbacks wouldn't be compensated. However, this would introduce several problems, for example that turning a send knob could change the latency of other tracks, leading to crackles and other undesirable things.

If you need chains of tracks that are properly compensated, you may want to use routings between player tracks. Such routings will be always compensated correctly (unless you create feedback, as said above).

Best regards,
Andreas

yes, I have memorized every post on this board that doesn't relate to politics or religion. Actually that only leaves 15 posts, so it wasn't that hard

[Amaury]

always no input, i think is a live bug

Hi,

Thanks for the details. Last question: how is the sends situation? Are unused sends 'disabled', or not? I'm just trying to understand your situation. It is true, as Angstrom pointed out, that thing can go out of sync if what we call a feedback is present. What we call a feedback can be a simple send that is enabled, on its own return track, even if it is set to -inf.

Is there anything preventing you from using audio tracks for part of your bussing?

Maybe the simplest is you send me the set, without any sample, just the set, in the state it is now: if some tracks are armed or anything, leave them armed or monitored. You can use amaury@ableton.com

Regards,
Amaury