Midi note delay issue

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BlackKey
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Midi note delay issue

Post by BlackKey » Thu May 08, 2008 3:08 pm

I’m using Ableton in my Live rig to run backing tracks as well as host softsynths and also use Live as a sor of midi patch bay controlling three modules all controlled by a Roland Fantom. I use the Fantom in performance mode sending MSB and LSB and PC data to the modules for control channels 1-4, the few softsynths I use midi channels 6-8 etc… I have the modules along with a M-Audio 4x4 midisport in a rack and the fantom plugged into the 4x4 as well. The problem is I have a noticeable lag in the triggering and sounding of notes when doing this. If I use the exact same set up in sonar it’s perfect but I really need to use Live in this application. Can anyone tell me why Ableton is lagging in terms of midi notes. I’m assuming it’s not the midisport drivers considering Sonar is dead on…..Seems like an Ableton issue, anyone else witness this issue.

bni
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Post by bni » Sun May 11, 2008 7:49 pm

yup, my setup is much simpler, but I have the exact same issue, mine works fine in Cubase, but Ableton there is that lag in midi notes from keys and drumpads.
And no one is answering my post with any answers just like this one, so I am assuming there is no fix and that it is an actaul Ableton issue that needs to be fixed.

ptstorm1956
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Post by ptstorm1956 » Tue May 13, 2008 1:35 am

well when I first switched to 7.0.5 I found the MIDI totally unplayable the delay was so bad. I found that when I switched it hadn't kept my preferences settings and was using a MME driver. When I switched to the asio drives things got much much better, maybe not perfect but at least playable. So I guess I'm saying check all your settings and good luck

three
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Post by three » Tue May 13, 2008 11:09 pm

we hear this way too much here, but the old "not a windows guy" thing applies here a bit - so i don't know what kind of diagnostic tools you have on windows, but the first interesting question is whether it's jitter causing latency or just straight up latency.

if jitter gets bad, then a well-behaved program will bump the latency to even it out, nothing sounds worse than jitter, not even the sound of 10,000 cats simultaneously chasing 10,000 pigeons, so it's usually seen as evil number one.

maybe one of the ableton guys can say a bit more about the midi architecture on the windows version, but the first thing i'd try to do in your position is measure the real midi latency and jitter just getting into and out of the computer, and leave the DAW out of it for the moment.

fun times,

chris

bni
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Post by bni » Wed May 14, 2008 1:28 am

I have looked into the midi latency thing with no resolve, it is not jitter I am having it is just straight up consistent delay.
I did notice that when I upgraded to 7 that my preferences did change to a MME drive instead of the ASIO driver, I changed it back but have not had a chance to see if it corrected the problem, maybe tomorrow night.
I would love to hear from the Ableton guys if this is correctable or what I can do.

three
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Post by three » Wed May 14, 2008 1:37 am

as i say, i would try and confirm (i.e. measure -> http://www.google.com/search?q=measure+midi+delay) the latency coming into your box. if it's getting held up somewhere you can look at a program for a long time. (i know that sonar is better, but even if you determine that it is coming into your box in a timely fashion and it's ableton that's got its fingers in its nose) then you have a baseline to measure against.

once you quantify the problem you'll know if little tweaks make a difference, and whether it's an improvement - 5 tweaks at 2ms a piece will make a big difference, but you probably won't hear any of them individually. 10 tweaks, 5 at +2ms and 5 at -2ms will just make you hate the world if you're not measuring.

so i'd recommend getting a baseline in place, and then you can go hunting for the issue.

cheers,

chris

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Wed May 14, 2008 2:05 am

#1: NOBODY LINK 'THE THREAD" !!!!!1!1!1!!

;)

ASIO / MME is an _audio_ driver choice.

MME / DirectX (DirectSound) is a _MIDI_ driver choice.

Ableton started supporting DX MIDI drivers with Live 7. There had been some problem with those (not sure of the current state of affairs) which would cause increasing latency the longer the program was left running. When in doubt, stick with MME.

Dammit, as much as I dont want to LINK "THE THREAD", I can't help referencing it's main point: A lot of people have a hard time accepting that Ableton apparently takes a different approach to monitoring than most other apps (?) in that when a track's monitor is IN (or AUTO+REC) - the latency is allowed to be reflected in the recorded MIDI.

The assumption is that you compensate physically to produce the sound that you want to hear. Personally I agree with this. Others do not, and sometimes very much so ;)

Anyway I hope some part of that addresses the issues here... maybe, maybe not...

Jrel
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Post by Jrel » Wed May 14, 2008 4:00 am

Yes, there is a problem in Live. I haven't had midi lag issues with previous versions. Now, it's quite noticeable. I've never had to play so much "ahead" as before. I feel like I'm working in Sonar again.

eddu
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Post by eddu » Wed May 14, 2008 8:43 am

Completely unacceptable bug fo such a big software like this.

Switching back to Live6 and thinking about changing the host...unfortunately.

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Wed May 14, 2008 3:31 pm

so did you guys change your midi drivers to MME?

bni
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Post by bni » Wed May 14, 2008 11:53 pm

Ok, so I changed the settings in the midi prefs a bit. my output settings I turned off sync remote and track, for midi in I turned off sync and remote leaving only track on and the midi delay is set to -300ms and it is working perfectly.

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