[amo] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

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3phase
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[amo] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by 3phase » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:34 pm

on miditrack to another...
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Amaury
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Re: [awi] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by Amaury » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:32 am

Hi,

Sorry, I tried from what I understood but I probably misunderstood. Could you send a simple set with instructions to beta@ableton.com?

Regards,
Amaury
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3phase
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Re: [awi] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by 3phase » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:49 pm

a simple set? hmm..can do..but not today..

bust its really just the indivdual offset track delays... they dont appear in a recording..

when you have for example multiple midi drumtracks..one with the bassdrum..and one with a snare roll. and one with a complicated hi hat figure that uses 10 samples... and you give them individual offset delays..like having the bassdrum 3 ms late and the hihat 2 ms early..
and then you want to bounce the 3 different midi tracks into one single clip--- the offset delays dont get recorded...all events appear on the one.. the +5ms on kick and the -2ms on the hihat are gone..

what is pretty uncovinient seeing that doing the same on any other midisequencer works since the very first days of midisequencing on a c-64 or mac plus
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Amaury
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Re: [awi] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by Amaury » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:26 pm

Hi,

I tried this based on your description:

- MIDI track 1 has no delay.
- MIDI track 2 has +50ms delay.
- MIDI track 3 has -25ms delay.
- Each of these tracks has a clip which plays 1/4 notes to make it simple. Each clip plays the note on a different pitch to make it clear.
- These 3 MIDI tracks route they MIDI out to MIDI track 4.
- I arm and monitor MIDI track 4, record a clip.
- I get a clip with the notes from the 3 MIDI clips, on their own pitch, and these notes are offset from the grid, by the amount of track delay on the original MIDI track 2 and 3.

So, this seems to work for me. What are you doing different? Note that this only works if Delay Compensation is ON in the Options menu. If OFF, the track delays are disabled.

Regards,
Amaury
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3phase
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Re: [awi] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by 3phase » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:21 pm

really? has there been some changes in the betas that could have effected this?

i try again and post back.. maybe i did it within a grouped track... i lately often grooup midi tracks for overview reasons when working with the apc..
is it possible that this effects the function of the individual track delays within the group?

i´ll try tomorow
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Amaury
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Re: [awi] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by Amaury » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:28 am

3phase wrote:really? has there been some changes in the betas that could have effected this?

i try again and post back.. maybe i did it within a grouped track... i lately often grooup midi tracks for overview reasons when working with the apc..
is it possible that this effects the function of the individual track delays within the group?

i´ll try tomorow
Grouping the MIDI tracks shouldn't affect how track delays behave. But please report back after your experiment.

Regards,
Amaury
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3phase
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Re: [awi] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by 3phase » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:51 pm

i rechecked it now... what dont works is to shift tracks forward..
When you bounce multiple miditracks at once it works somehow..but in a very unconvinient way...

all events in the bounced track get shiftet later acording to biggest negativ offset delay involved...

this is very unconvinient because when you want shift the result afterwards, what is actually unnecessary extra work, you never know how much you have to move the events.. there is no tool in Ableton that gives such microshifts a numeric value..

So its not a "what you hear is what you get situation" and its more or less accidental to get it exactly as initially planend by readjusting..

Additional to that the start of the bounced clip is faulty... overlapping notes are misinterpretated and get triggered at the one even when original have been a 16th before that.


What dont works at all ...and that is how i came along the problem... bouncing a track with negativ offset into a allready exsisting midiclip via midi overdub dont works at all..teh offset is elimanated than ...


Why you dont just record what happens in a clip and have this no negativ offsets allowed politic? it seems to be more complicated thate way you did it..and its most unpractical..

5 would say its a bug and no feature to handle such situations the way you do
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Re: [awi] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by Amaury » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:14 pm

3phase wrote:i rechecked it now... what dont works is to shift tracks forward..
When you bounce multiple miditracks at once it works somehow..but in a very unconvinient way...

all events in the bounced track get shiftet later acording to biggest negativ offset delay involved...

this is very unconvinient because when you want shift the result afterwards, what is actually unnecessary extra work, you never know how much you have to move the events.. there is no tool in Ableton that gives such microshifts a numeric value..

So its not a "what you hear is what you get situation" and its more or less accidental to get it exactly as initially planend by readjusting..
Hi,

Sorry but I don't really follow and must be missing something. Please send a simple set to beta@ableton.com, with as few MIDI tracks as needed, with as few MIDI clips as needed, with some instructions about what to do, and what to observe. That will be easier for all of us. Please try staying on topic, adding problems description to a problem description that's not yet clear only adds confusion.
3phase wrote: Additional to that the start of the bounced clip is faulty... overlapping notes are misinterpretated and get triggered at the one even when original have been a 16th before that.
The data gets recorded the same, wherever is comes from. If you hold a note on the keyboard, and start to record a MIDI clip, the note will be recorded in the clip, starting on the 1. That's the same kind of behaviour you're experiencing.
3phase wrote: What dont works at all ...and that is how i came along the problem... bouncing a track with negativ offset into a allready exsisting midiclip via midi overdub dont works at all..teh offset is elimanated than ...


Why you dont just record what happens in a clip and have this no negativ offsets allowed politic? it seems to be more complicated thate way you did it..and its most unpractical..

5 would say its a bug and no feature to handle such situations the way you do
Wait, now it doesn't work at all? Or you can record some delays? Or only one way? I'm confused. At least, there is no "politic" of "no negative offsets". Here, it works for me to record a clip from a MIDI track with a negative offset, into a clip overdubbing on another track.

Let's start with a simple set, solve problem N.1, and then move on to the next. Is that sounding good to you?

Regards,
Amaury
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3phase
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Re: [awi] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by 3phase » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:40 am

is it really so difficult to understnd what i ve described here? I wonder if i should post a link in the general forum with the question if this is the case...

shall i do so?

You say you can bounce negative offset delays from one midi track to the other?

this dont works on a mack book with os x 10.5.8

if it works on other platforms its clearly a bug
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Amaury
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Re: [awi] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by Amaury » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:22 am

3phase wrote:is it really so difficult to understnd what i ve described here? I wonder if i should post a link in the general forum with the question if this is the case...

shall i do so?

You say you can bounce negative offset delays from one midi track to the other?

this dont works on a mack book with os x 10.5.8

if it works on other platforms its clearly a bug
Hello,

It is not that hard to understand what you write, as far as my understanding and your explanatory skills go. I tried what I understand, and more, and can't see a problem. So, as we get different results, there must be something that I either misunderstand, and that you failed to explain right, like a simple step or anything. Therefore, I ask you to send a simple set. Is that too hard to do? Is it easier to post that in a general forum and moan about the bug instead of taking a small step to help reproducing it?

Remember, no amount of words would help fixing a bug. Only reproducing it on our end would. We try, sometimes a set makes wonders.. It's up to you.

Regards,
Amaury
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3phase
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Re: [awi] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by 3phase » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:49 pm

sure..it is just that i dont really know how to create a set that shows the phenomen in this case because you only would see the end result...


i download the newest beta and try again and send the result...
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Amaury
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Re: [awi] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by Amaury » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:01 pm

3phase wrote:sure..it is just that i dont really know how to create a set that shows the phenomen in this case because you only would see the end result...


i download the newest beta and try again and send the result...
Hi,

Here is waht I'd suggest to do: send a set, together with a few instructions as what to do, like:

- Start clip 1.
- Start clip 2.
- Start recording on track 3.
- Stop recording..

Then, with instructions as what to observe (look into the clip created on track 3, the C3 should be here, and is there etc..). Please make it as simple as it gets, and try the precise steps before sending, that will make things faster to understand.

Regards,
Amaury
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3phase
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Re: [awi] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by 3phase » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:05 pm

ok.. i ve sended the file to the mail adress in your signature..

but it behaves exactly as described..there is no recording of negative offset delays of single tracks or midi overdub of negtive offset delays into another clip... called test 1 on the first 2 tracks

One interesting phenomen to note here.. the notes in the recorded trck get longer acording to the amount of negative offset delay of the source track..


And bouncing mutiple tracks into one gets the negative offset delay but the result will be shifted later and is doing errors on overlapping notes..

called test 2 on tracks 4 to 8
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Re: [awi] track delays on miditracks dont get rec. when bouncing

Post by Palmer Eldritch » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:19 am

Amaury wrote:Hi,

I tried this based on your description:

- MIDI track 1 has no delay.
- MIDI track 2 has +50ms delay.
- MIDI track 3 has -25ms delay.
- Each of these tracks has a clip which plays 1/4 notes to make it simple. Each clip plays the note on a different pitch to make it clear.
- These 3 MIDI tracks route they MIDI out to MIDI track 4.
- I arm and monitor MIDI track 4, record a clip.
- I get a clip with the notes from the 3 MIDI clips, on their own pitch, and these notes are offset from the grid, by the amount of track delay on the original MIDI track 2 and 3.

Amaury
Tried this with Live 8.0.5b12 on a Mac OS 10.5.8 with the same result. (No -obvious- problem here)
Live 8_3_4 + 4b7_32+64 -Suite- Max4Live 5_1_9 _ core2DuoMacBook 2*2,16 Ghz + external FW HD _ OSX 10.6.8 _ 3G RAM _ M.H. MIO 2882 + 5.4d208 Driver _ Faderfox LV1 _ Akai MPK25 _ Logitec wheel mouse _______ PeacE will be the SOLution of LIVE

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