[amo] could you please adress the scrolling problem?

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3phase
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[amo] could you please adress the scrolling problem?

Post by 3phase » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:32 am

otherwise there is no use in keeping one of your launchpads
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

Amaury
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Re: [amo] could you please adress the scrolling problem?

Post by Amaury » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:01 pm

Hello,

Sorry, what scrolling problem do you mean?

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

3phase
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Re: [amo] could you please adress the scrolling problem?

Post by 3phase » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:15 pm

live 8.1 and the apc together... settings.. apc selected in the control surfaces selection, takeover mode none...

and in the individual ports having the apc slected as remote sender and reciever to do custom settings...


Apc can stuck while scrolling ... scrolling back is jumpy and erratic... jumps back to the upper right corner than... stucks a bit... than you are free to go back wher you wanted to go to in the first place..

resulting in a situation wher you prefer to use a wet trackpad on stage...
Not actually what i expected when i bought this bulky 500 euro unit...

but... before your update using the native control presets with the bome player verything was working nicely..

so i actually think there is a problem somewhere you should investigate now and after more complains are coming in...

Beside that jummpy behaviour the scorlling itself is not very nicely done... at least when you come from the native contrl scrolling that allowed smooth and fast navigation you feel a bit like a caveman now... it reacts late and is somehow slow ..
So when you copy a feature you should implement it at least as good.. or allow the user to disable the ableton scrolling to allow the 3rd party presets to hold on working.


beside that there is the fundamental problem that you can navigate outside the range of exsiting tracks... i see that this is easier to program this way..butit results in quite some misscomfort for the user especally when beeing under time pressure on stage..

even when you just have 8 tracks and just want to jump some steps tp the side to access the return chanels you can end in situations where you run into nowhere...
especially with the hanging tendency we have in the moment.


Is it really so problematic to have the apc control preset beeing aware of the exsisting track count in a projekt?
Or is that just one line of code extra?
If so i would call it a conceptional bug.. there is no logical reason to alow the selector to move outside the exsisting range.

the "problem" that a jump in 8th would result in jumping back to another location when having a trackcount that is not divideable by 8 is a rather nerdish argument..

first.. when this is required you could add the line of code that manages this..second.. for people that need that its easy to keep the track count divideable by 8..
and third.. it was your idea to add the returns to the navigateable range instead including direct jumps...
so dealing with the uneven trackcounts resulting easily from that would actually part of good design..

just allow the control surface to get into nowheres land is a no solution here....

i would suggest to have the horizaontal scrolling limited by the actual exsisting tracks on the right border of the frame.. but having the jump back in 8steps quantized by the absolute track number..

so if you have 15 tracks... and 3 returns.. 18 total.. a scroll to the right would leave you with track 11-15 and the 3 sends..
juming back by 8 goes straight to track 9-15+1 return..

that would be convinient and clean operational design IMO...
The way things work wright now feels a bit shoddy and actually suggests to sell the stuff as quick as possible.
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

Amaury
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Re: [amo] could you please adress the scrolling problem?

Post by Amaury » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:38 pm

Hello,

* Sticky scrolling: I'm so far no seeing it, but will keep trying. One question in the meantime: do you say that the ring "jumps" to the upper right corner, from another location, without you wanting to go there, OR, do you say that when you scroll to the upper right corner by scrolling, it jumps? And, do you really mean 'this' right corner, or the other right, meaning, the upper left corner (which is the default, base location for the ring)?

* "Slow scrolling": there is a "delay" before the automatic scrolling happens, so that you don't accidentally scroll 2 scenes when you make a short push on the button to just scroll 1 scene. Are you talking about that lag? OR the speed of the scrolling after that lag?


* Limiting the ring position by the last track: There are some advantages to jump *always* by 8 tracks when shift scrolling, and more than that, with the "zoom overview" you see when pressing SHIFT, on the buttons matrix (which allow you to precisely jump by 8 tracks/5 scenes). Put otherwise, I think it would be confusing if jumping by 8 would sometimes only jump by 3, or 7. Some people add tracks while on stage, or do any other crazy stuff, and knowing track 9 will be the first on the APC if you bank scroll, always, has a certain advantage.

That said, you have a valid point that scrolling 1 by 1, and ending with one track only controlled by the APC is weird. I'm thinking we could go in a "in between" way: limit the 1 by 1 scrolling to the visible tracks, and still jump by 8 tracks with SHIFT scroll or via the zoom overview. Then scrolling back 1 by 1 to the left does what it should, and as soon as the ring is back to showing you 8 tracks, you can't scroll back 1 by 1 to the right. In practise I imagine it could work, but I have to talk with more people to get opinions. What do you think?

Kind regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

3phase
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Re: [amo] could you please adress the scrolling problem?

Post by 3phase » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:42 am

Hi,

i wasnt able to reproduce the hanging either sofar.. but it happened in stage. wet humid condition.. and bass shaking enviroment... however.. this has to work on stage ..


regarding the bad behavior of the scrolling.. yes.. the starting gap is part of it.. its too slow...
scrolling itself is slow than aswell.. maybe 15%-20% faster would be ok.. however big part
of the problem is that changing scrolling directions dont works without giving it a distinctiv break.. so the try to quickly going back when youve moved too far wil stop the scrolling when the time betwenn the commands is too short.. actual the new incoming comand should override the old one even when the key still would have been held.. but it even stops when the gap betwenn the presses is "too short".. it actually needs a quite distinctiv gap..

Theese "are you sure" mentality on a stage device is not handy.. musicans lern to play theire instruments fast..therefore an instrument should be designed for that... maybe an safe mode for elderly people maybe in cojunction with a high contrast colourcheme that avoids red/green diversification as an option instead? ;-P
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

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