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 Post subject: Group Mute mutes all nested channels (and groups)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:04 pm
Posts: 27
In complex projects I find myself grouping many tracks (and groups, in future Live 10). Since I don't mix in the box I use to route tracks to different external channels, even if they are part of the same group of tracks. It would be very useful and handy to have the option to mute the entire group and its nested tracks, regardless of their output routing. Now I can only mute the tracks that are routed to the group's Output.


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 Post subject: Re: Group Mute mutes all nested channels (and groups)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:04 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:14 am
Posts: 529
Location: Warsaw, Poland
stereodrive wrote:
In complex projects I find myself grouping many tracks (and groups, in future Live 10). Since I don't mix in the box I use to route tracks to different external channels, even if they are part of the same group of tracks. It would be very useful and handy to have the option to mute the entire group and its nested tracks, regardless of their output routing. Now I can only mute the tracks that are routed to the group's Output.


Well, the current behaviour makes sense. Still, post a suggestion on Live 10 beta forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Group Mute mutes all nested channels (and groups)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:54 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am
Posts: 5709
stereodrive wrote:
In complex projects I find myself grouping many tracks (and groups, in future Live 10). Since I don't mix in the box I use to route tracks to different external channels, even if they are part of the same group of tracks. It would be very useful and handy to have the option to mute the entire group and its nested tracks, regardless of their output routing. Now I can only mute the tracks that are routed to the group's Output.


I think this is really an extension to VCA control requests though. VCA would mean grouped tracks could have an overall relative fader change. I'd assume any different routings would not exclude being affected. So if a VCA fader could rule grouped faders, adding a mute/solo/arm function working the same way is not far-fetched.

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 Post subject: Re: Group Mute mutes all nested channels (and groups)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:09 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:14 am
Posts: 529
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Stromkraft wrote:
stereodrive wrote:
In complex projects I find myself grouping many tracks (and groups, in future Live 10). Since I don't mix in the box I use to route tracks to different external channels, even if they are part of the same group of tracks. It would be very useful and handy to have the option to mute the entire group and its nested tracks, regardless of their output routing. Now I can only mute the tracks that are routed to the group's Output.


I think this is really an extension to VCA control requests though. VCA would mean grouped tracks could have an overall relative fader change. I'd assume any different routings would not exclude being affected. So if a VCA fader could rule grouped faders, adding a mute/solo/arm function working the same way is not far-fetched.


Well, even though I can see what you mean, I don't think Live needs VCA channels to implement what OP's asking for - just add a shortcut (say Alt+click on Mute) that'll mute all tracks within group, kinda like 'copy to siblings' in Drum Racks :)


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 Post subject: Re: Group Mute mutes all nested channels (and groups)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:27 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am
Posts: 5709
antic604 wrote:
Stromkraft wrote:
stereodrive wrote:
In complex projects I find myself grouping many tracks (and groups, in future Live 10). Since I don't mix in the box I use to route tracks to different external channels, even if they are part of the same group of tracks. It would be very useful and handy to have the option to mute the entire group and its nested tracks, regardless of their output routing. Now I can only mute the tracks that are routed to the group's Output.


I think this is really an extension to VCA control requests though. VCA would mean grouped tracks could have an overall relative fader change. I'd assume any different routings would not exclude being affected. So if a VCA fader could rule grouped faders, adding a mute/solo/arm function working the same way is not far-fetched.


Well, even though I can see what you mean, I don't think Live needs VCA channels to implement what OP's asking for - just add a shortcut (say Alt+click on Mute) that'll mute all tracks within group, kinda like 'copy to siblings' in Drum Racks :)


"Just add a VCA" then.

Maybe it's not so "just" to add anything. Because adding things has consequences. Some are good ones, other, like side-effects, can be bad.

Consistency and meeting natural expectations is quite important. If the group mute could optionally be set to mute all group members, for instance, which I think could be a simple way to implement the request here, then optionally letting the group fader fade the group member's faders relatively feels only natural and would be kinda weird to leave out.

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 Post subject: Re: Group Mute mutes all nested channels (and groups)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:09 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:04 pm
Posts: 27
Thank you for your replies. VCA is a cool feature to have, but I don't see it necessarily related to my point. I'd rather find more simple and straightforward a "right click option".
I applied to Live 10 suggestions.


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 Post subject: Re: Group Mute mutes all nested channels (and groups)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:00 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:14 am
Posts: 529
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Stromkraft wrote:
"Just add a VCA" then.

Maybe it's not so "just" to add anything. Because adding things has consequences. Some are good ones, other, like side-effects, can be bad.

Consistency and meeting natural expectations is quite important. If the group mute could optionally be set to mute all group members, for instance, which I think could be a simple way to implement the request here, then optionally letting the group fader fade the group member's faders relatively feels only natural and would be kinda weird to leave out.


Man, you really like to have the last say, don't you?

Why are you even bringing faders into this discussion? And why would group channel's fader move the faders of nested tracks? If you'd bring down group channel's fader down by -3dB and the same would be copied to the tracks inside, the overall output would be lower by -6dB since nested tracks are (usually) routed through group channel. That's why you have the concept of VCAs which are not buses, but just 'remotes' to selected track's faders. But even then, VCAs are also not relevant to OP's question as this is simply solved with a "script" that would click all the Mute buttons within group, when group channel's Mute is clicked with some modifier key. It's really a straightforward feature request.


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 Post subject: Re: Group Mute mutes all nested channels (and groups)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:13 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am
Posts: 5709
antic604 wrote:

Why are you even bringing faders into this discussion? And why would group channel's fader move the faders of nested tracks? If you'd bring down group channel's fader down by -3dB and the same would be copied to the tracks inside, the overall output would be lower by -6dB since nested tracks are (usually) routed through group channel.



My idea of implementation of the "mute grouped tracks" function was, instead of new dedicated group mutes**,
to optionally set the current group mute buttons and faders to mute grouped tracks and fade group tracks like a VCA, instead of using the group as a buss.

I almost never use groups as busses anyway. I don't see a use case before me where you both want a group buss as well as a VCA, though I realize this is technically possible. Taste and preferences differs of course, so I'm not claiming this is more than an idea. To me these two functions logically belong together.

**One other alternative then would be to add another mute button or, changed via a right click selection or something like that, could remake the current mute button into a "mute grouped tracks" button. The difference could be signalled with a different look. I suppose you could have two buttons as well if you make them different enough, but there's limited space. It's probably solvable.

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