I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Share what you’d like to see added to Ableton Live.
pottering
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Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:41 am

Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by pottering » Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:53 am

This feature doesn't make sense in Live.

It only really works in other DAWs that limit plugins (aka "inserts") per track.

If you don't limit the the number plugins it is pointless, since GUI and screen space are limited the slots will be hidden after X devices are loaded, and user will have to scroll up/down, which completely defeats the purpose.

Even without scrolling, you can't really visualize or locate devices fast once you have a lot of devices per track (which is VERY common in Live).

This feature only "works" in other DAWs whose users are used to a very limited framework where they only load 3 or 4 plugins per track (kinda sad really).

BTW, if you ever asked yourself what's the point of using those "channel strip" plugins with a bunch of mediocre FX, instead of the better version FX from the very same dev, that's the answer, it is the "device slots" features in those other DAWs that leads users to use fewer plugins per track, and to avoid using single purpose FX to "save space" in the "device slots".

It is feature that leads user to limit themselves FOR NO GOOD REASON, the "benefits" (almost none IMO) don't come even close to balancing out the minuses.

You can locate M4L plugins just like samples in the Manage Files panel, if that can't be done with VST/AU/etc, then that would be a much better improvement for the purpose of locating missing plugins than device slots.
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baseinstinct
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Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:45 am

Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by baseinstinct » Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:49 pm

In my opinion, it take a special kind of effort to resist a bird's eye view of all the sound processors in use throughout project.

This is where you could get a clear idea of CPU hiccups coincidence with activation of certain plugins or group.
This is where missing plugins could be highlighted, and depending on the width of your screen(s), you could see a hundred tracks without scrolling.
This is also where you could, among other things, see marked effects which are off AND never get automated ON whether in clips or in sequencer view. Those are the no-brainers for deletion in case you plan to migrate project or just run out of memory (at least once ), Live to put it metaphorically, fall into deep sleep and dont respond.

jonljacobi
Posts: 887
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:36 am

Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by jonljacobi » Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:53 pm

pottering wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:53 am
This feature doesn't make sense in Live.

It only really works in other DAWs that limit plugins (aka "inserts") per track.

If you don't limit the the number plugins it is pointless, since GUI and screen space are limited the slots will be hidden after X devices are loaded, and user will have to scroll up/down, which completely defeats the purpose.

Even without scrolling, you can't really visualize or locate devices fast once you have a lot of devices per track (which is VERY common in Live).

This feature only "works" in other DAWs whose users are used to a very limited framework where they only load 3 or 4 plugins per track (kinda sad really).

BTW, if you ever asked yourself what's the point of using those "channel strip" plugins with a bunch of mediocre FX, instead of the better version FX from the very same dev, that's the answer, it is the "device slots" features in those other DAWs that leads users to use fewer plugins per track, and to avoid using single purpose FX to "save space" in the "device slots".

It is feature that leads user to limit themselves FOR NO GOOD REASON, the "benefits" (almost none IMO) don't come even close to balancing out the minuses.

You can locate M4L plugins just like samples in the Manage Files panel, if that can't be done with VST/AU/etc, then that would be a much better improvement for the purpose of locating missing plugins than device slots.

True, it would be ideal to have unlimited slots and scrolling, and that's kind of what's being asked. Flesh it out. That said, I never even approach 12 devices on a single track, let alone exceed that number. I will say that a rack should count as a single device.

And I (and apparently others) find it insanely handy as is, so your supposition that it's pointless or doesn't make sense is specious.

baseinstinct
Posts: 927
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:45 am

Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by baseinstinct » Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:17 pm

This is not getting anywhere: negativity against the idea is disrupting both brainstorming and presentation of the merits.

To any opponents, how about vocalising your disapproval in a dedicated thread? There is a pre-made one for you: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=245698 (I beg you! Please DONT flesh out show device slots in the mixer)

There is plenty to be discovered in the thought process, but you are chaps hijacking the context. You see, if you are not interested, you can't make a valuable contribution to the ins and out of it, or at least there has been nothing speaking for the contrary, two pages into discussion.

The last word belongs to Ableton Dev team anyway, so just let it roll and try enjoying yourselves in that other thread - this will test the validity of your interest in the topic.
I am sure without the feed of our meaningful discussion, yours will thrive.

Peace.

pottering
Posts: 1802
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:41 am

Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by pottering » Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:12 pm

baseinstinct wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:17 pm
This is not getting anywhere: negativity against the idea is disrupting both brainstorming and presentation of the merits.

To any opponents, how about vocalising your disapproval in a dedicated thread? There is a pre-made one for you: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=245698 (I beg you! Please DONT flesh out show device slots in the mixer)

There is plenty to be discovered in the thought process, but you are chaps hijacking the context. You see, if you are not interested, you can't make a valuable contribution to the ins and out of it, or at least there has been nothing speaking for the contrary, two pages into discussion.

The last word belongs to Ableton Dev team anyway, so just let it roll and try enjoying yourselves in that other thread - this will test the validity of your interest in the topic.
I am sure without the feed of our meaningful discussion, yours will thrive.

Peace.
"Brainstorming" that only allows positive opinions?

If you don't allow people voicing disapproval, then you have a "echo chamber", not "brainstorming".
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Angstrom
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Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by Angstrom » Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:18 am

When I was back there in Seminary School
There was a person there
Who put forth the proposition
That you can petition the Lord with prayer
Petition the Lord with prayer
Petition the Lord with prayer
You cannot petition the Lord with prayer!

Kriont
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:25 pm

Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by Kriont » Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:53 pm

There is a Max for Live plug-in that can help: Device Matrix for Ableton Live

jonljacobi
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Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:36 am

Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by jonljacobi » Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:51 pm

I completely agree with Pottering. Disapproval and differing opinions must be heard. As long as it doesn't get personal, it's all good. I want to hear what everyone thinks, not just people that agree with me. It's a good way to learn new stuff.

Criticism is also the best way to test your ideas and way of thinking. If you can't defend them, then that's a sure sign you should do further pondering. If you can, then simply do so.

Vosakiz
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:12 pm

Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by Vosakiz » Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:39 pm

Thanks for all the answers.
i not only want an overview of the Plugins used, but also the small wrench icon to open vst's directly from the Mixer overview.
Many users (like me) don't ever use the “clips” so in our perspective it's a lot of wasted space which could be used so greatly for this feature.
I also agree that once Audio Effect Racks are used, a quick click could just open the detailed view at the bottom – problem solved for people that want to use show device slots.
Today, many people sort of have a hybrid workflow where creating and mixing does happen together.

It also seems like the Ableton devs are not aware that so many people use a ton of VST Effects and don't want to click on a small wrench every time to open a plugin. Double click (or wrench) them in the mixer to open – issue solved.

In my opinion, Ableton should loosen their tight work ethnics a little. It already seems like a wonder that we got comping now. They implemented this feature very well for people that would like to use it!

If you don't need the feature, you could just turn it off, like the way it works now.

jonljacobi
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Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:36 am

Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by jonljacobi » Thu Sep 08, 2022 1:51 am

Opening the third-party plug-ins directly would be nice as well. I don't think you need a wrench, just a double-click that acts appropriately. Live's plug-ins are controlled in detail view, third-party plug-ins are controlled in their own windows.

Vosakiz
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:12 pm

Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by Vosakiz » Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:57 pm

jonljacobi wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2022 1:51 am
Opening the third-party plug-ins directly would be nice as well. I don't think you need a wrench, just a double-click that acts appropriately. Live's plug-ins are controlled in detail view, third-party plug-ins are controlled in their own windows.
Yeah, maybe the time they tried this feature in Live 4 not so many people used third-party plugins. Also, the screens were much smaller back then.

op_01
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Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by op_01 » Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:07 pm

+1

baseinstinct
Posts: 927
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:45 am

Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by baseinstinct » Fri Oct 28, 2022 4:07 pm

Guys, I think we are wasting time. Why not just focus on designing the feature, some hghlights, pictures and let Ableton count the votes against if they matter at all. There is no positive out come of both sides battling with arguments. Those who are for, let's join forces and come up with a clear and concise feature request. Let's commit to finishing this by say, end of November, or else Chrismas 2023 will still see this pointless exchange at the top of the charts.

It appears that it is not possible to have a constructive conversation aimed at dealing with the expectations and technical challenges without interference here.
By the way, it does make some sense for a close circle of moderators and beta testers to disrupt such talks provided they have been eyebrowed by Ableton into such toxic form of 'managing expectations', although it would make much more sense for a company representative to make a statement. Until that is made, diverting a wishlist thread from hows to ifs is counterproductive at best.

Ideally, at this point proponents would create still another, clean thread for discussing the hows to come up with a clear concise request to Ableton Devs. I am sure we all know the final say will be Ableton's anyway (and not moderators' or dinosaurs').

There is a risk however that such a thread will be trolled, or spammed as is this one and the previous ones.

Tarekith, Angstrom, have you been instructed by Ableton to discourage discussing this feature, or are you just speaking your mind?
Tarekith, can proponents have a dedicated thread where you will help us remain uninterrupted? It could be a private room but so much better if open to everyone, only sh*p *p if nothing useful to add.

Tarekith
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Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by Tarekith » Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:42 pm

Ableton has never told us to discourage ANY threads, provided of course they follow the community guidelines. People are free to discuss whatever pros and cons they think would apply to any feature suggestion. None of the mods here are discouraging this talk either, I'm not sure why you would think that.

However, and I've said it repeatedly in the discussions about this feature, Ableton has already responded each time I've brought this to their attention. The show device slots feature was a experimental test from back before Live 4, and once the concept of instrument and effects racks were part of Live, it no longer made sense as it was and thus THERE ARE NO PLANS TO DEVELOP IT FURTHER RIGHT NOW. The only reason that options.txt line has not been depreciated is that they know some people still find it useful so it will remain for now.

For a company that publicly has said they will not comment on future features or releases, this is as close to a clear cut answer as they've ever given about a feature request. Will they change their mind or come up with some better variant in the future? I have no idea, that's obviously always a possibility. But until then, all I can do is pass on what I've been told to let people know where Ableton stands on this currently.

P.S. Angstrom is not a mod here, only myself and [jur] are the mods here, although other Ableton employees help out now and then too.
Tarekith
Ableton Forum Administrator
https://tarekith.com

baseinstinct
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Re: I beg you! Please flesh out show device slots in the mixer

Post by baseinstinct » Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:31 pm

Oh, this is new information, that you have been kind enough to actually speak for us at Abletons'.
Thanks for that and I wish I had not overseen this if you ever communicated it that clearly. With my adhd, I would still notice something like this:

Folks: Please Abes fix at least this useful feature that is there and looks so bloody useful. Or make it better by adding 1).... 2)...
Tarekith: "I am happy to check w/ Ables, although as far as I know it is a lost battle"
some time later
T: "After considering pros and cons, Ableton said there is no chance in foreseeable future, unfortunately."
F: (*&(^(*&^. Thanks anyway.
The end.

In hindsight, I can see was quite unfortunate that I was not aware you actually did help as much as your role allowed because without knowing this, it felt as though you were making unfair use of your status.

This being clarified, thanks again. Let's see what others say. For me, being still a bit of a PITA, if it was at least fixed so that vst(i) newly added in a session would show correctly as well. I would think that this is a matter of copying and pasting a tiny amount of code that does the trick at the session start to the part which finalises adding an effect.
That said, I can see now how bringing this up once is all it takes because you actually do represent us. Let's see what others say.

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