Proper GROOVE features and intelligent quantising.

Share your wishes for the future of Ableton Live
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eldar
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Post by eldar » Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:19 pm

me wants that too! :o

montrealbreaks
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Post by montrealbreaks » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:31 pm

bump

:mrgreen:

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john gordon
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Post by john gordon » Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:34 pm

please yes.

lola
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Post by lola » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:50 am

Please ableton's

Add a swingfunction.
German's like to dance too?

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Post by amo » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:00 pm

lola wrote:Please ableton's

Add a swingfunction.
German's like to dance too?
You're aware that swing is there right ? What we ask in this thread is to be able to apply different grooves to a clip, like the groove of an audio loop, not only regular swing.
Cheers,
amo
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simon phelps
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Post by simon phelps » Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:38 am

I made a post about this I didnt notice this :oops: I want more quantise

louZ
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Post by louZ » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:58 am

we're still waiting :)

Cryptic UK
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Post by Cryptic UK » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:50 am

This is 2005 ableton come on

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Post by montrealbreaks » Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:41 am

Man o man. I'm using Reason and Cubase these days cause I can really dick around with groove with those two progs.

I haven't even opened a Live file in the last 3 months!!! C'mon Abes, I'm not upgrading again without this feature. Simple as that. I'm through with Live (for the time being).

Now that Reason has the combinator, I've been doing only pattern sequencing on the fly, and I haven't even needed Live.

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ABES, READ THIS PLEASE! How to implement what we request!

Post by montrealbreaks » Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:42 am

OK, this is how I see it.

There should be a feature where you can push a "groove master" button on one of your channels, and the currently playing clip's groove is applied to each of the other three. This button could be similar in footprint to the mute or solo buttons... Or it could be at the top of the channels, where the names are. You'll also need a "groove slave" button on each channel.

So, let's say that we have a swingin set of drums in audio mode. If I warp marker them so they're totally straight, no swing and in perfect quantization, shouldn't Live be able to interpret, by means of its timestretching, where the original transients were?

Here's an unwarped clip full of funk:
Image
Note the late snare drum at 1.2 and the late hi-hats before 1.4.

Here's one that's had the funk quantized right out of it:
Image
You notice how the time ruler at the BOTTOM of the clip hasn't changed? Live still knows the absolute values of the orignal clip despite warp markers!


So let's say you play this quantized clip in the currently selected "master groove" track. Because you did your warping dillligently, Live already has all the information it needs to know how to "unwarp" this clip and reverse engineer the groove.

Then, with the "master groove" button on in that track (like a solo button, or "radio style" button where only one can be on at a time) it would apply it's groove to all other tracks selected with the "groove slave" button. Your MIDI could be 100% quantized, but it would fall into place with the original warped track.

If you hit the "groove master" button on another, it should immediately apply its groove to all channels with the "groove slave" button turned on (like a cue button, more than one channel should be able to be designated groove slaves).

Naturally, all the clips in your slave tracks would have to be quantized 100%, or they would end up outta whack. No prob, cause if you want that groove back, you just designate those clips as the master groove channel! Imagine the groove possibilities of this! (by the way, this would incorporate seamlessly with .rx2 files, but that's another story).

For using a midi clip as "groove master", it would have to be UNQUANTIZED. If you quantized it, you would lose all your groove data. However, using it as the master is an even simpler proposition, since there's no reverse engineering of the warp markers to do!!!

When you switch a midi clip to a "groove slave" state, a temporary and user-invisible quantize should be applied so everything is straight. The user shouldn't even see this process. However, there should be a menu in the preferences for setting the resolution of this, be it 8th, 16th, 32nd or 64th notes (or even triplets or whatever). Then, the groove template from the "groove master" channel (be it midi or warped audio) is applied to the straight track, re-funkifying it. This invisible pre-quantizing would ensure you didn't screw up your groove by applying timing changes to stuff that's already got wonky timing.

What it might look like is this:
Imagine you have four clips, in four channels. One and Two are audio, three and four are midi.

Image

In this case, Track 1 is the master (purple radio button), track 2 and 3 are the slaves (green toggle buttons), and track 4 doesn't have a groove applied. Also, I think that since the "S" character is already used for solo, some other letter or graphic would have to be used for the groove slaves...

Anyways, Abes - c'mon, this'll work! You already have the data, technology and know-how to do this!
Last edited by montrealbreaks on Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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amo
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Re: ABES, READ THIS PLEASE! How to implement what we reques

Post by amo » Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:47 am

montrealbreaks wrote: Anyways, Abes - c'mon, this'll work! You already have the data, technology and know-how to do this!
Hi,

Your solution would mean something more: the "master" clip you're talking about would need to be warped in order to let Live know about its groove, but at the same time it would need to play unwarped no ?
Maybe we could otherwise "export" the groove from a warped clip, as you described, in a "groove library", and the apply a groove from the library to other clips from a drop down menu. That we we would have the liberty to apply different grooves to different clips, even from clips that are not in the session. Which can be kind of cool. Like making the HH groove, but not based on a current audio loop.
In that idea, even a midi clip could be exported as a groove.

Best,
amo
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radeon
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Post by radeon » Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:33 pm

Has people from Ableton answered questions about groove quantize i have not seen any. It scares me they dont take seriously this function. I feel like a child not allowed to ask a grown up question. Please ableton tell us it will be in version six or even better a sub update. Waiting to not know kills the spirit. So such an important fucntion really. If grovoe wont be added V6 I would look at other software so I would like to know before summer time 06 so I can decide now.

Please tell us :?

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Re: ABES, READ THIS PLEASE! How to implement what we reques

Post by buzzcock » Sat Nov 19, 2005 3:28 pm

amo wrote:Your solution would mean something more: the "master" clip you're talking about would need to be warped in order to let Live know about its groove, but at the same time it would need to play unwarped no ?
Maybe we could otherwise "export" the groove from a warped clip, as you described, in a "groove library", and the apply a groove from the library to other clips from a drop down menu. That we we would have the liberty to apply different grooves to different clips, even from clips that are not in the session. Which can be kind of cool. Like making the HH groove, but not based on a current audio loop.
In that idea, even a midi clip could be exported as a groove.
One way of exporting grooves could be:

Drag and drop "Warp Marker Bar". You know, the bar with all the warp markers on it.

Example1: You have a perfectly quantised drum loop and you mess up all the warp markers on it so it plays funky. Then you drag and drop this set of warp markers onto other quantized clips.

Example2: You have a funky live drum clip and you warp it to quantized perfection (a la montealbreaks above). By "right clicking" on the Warp Marker Bar you can drag and drop the "inverse" of the warp marker settings (read: groove) onto any other quantized clip. Then you un-warp the original.

In both cases you would have to quantize (and possibly re-render) your "slave clips" in order for the groove to work right. Unless there was also a "Relative Mode" for slave clips with warp markers on them already.
Also, you could save these Grooves in a menu so as to be usable on any set (as amo has described).
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montrealbreaks
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ABES, READ THIS PLEASE! How to implement what we request!

Post by montrealbreaks » Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:41 pm

amo wrote: Hi,

Your solution would mean something more: the "master" clip you're talking about would need to be warped in order to let Live know about its groove, but at the same time it would need to play unwarped no ?

Best,
amo

Yes, that's exactly what I meant, you said it better than I did... I must have forgotten to mention that the "master" would have to be played unwarped.

amo wrote: Maybe we could otherwise "export" the groove from a warped clip, as you described, in a "groove library", and the apply a groove from the library to other clips from a drop down menu. That we we would have the liberty to apply different grooves to different clips, even from clips that are not in the session. Which can be kind of cool. Like making the HH groove, but not based on a current audio loop.
In that idea, even a midi clip could be exported as a groove.
amo


I like this idea, but how could you midi-map something that you import? Drag n' drop is nice, but with my idea one could map the master and slave buttons to keys on the computer or midi buttons, so it's much more performance oriented.

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Post by M. Bréqs » Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:53 am

Bump yo.

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