Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Share your wishes for the future of Ableton Live
terry dactyl
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by terry dactyl » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:45 pm

+1 +1 +1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!

eyeknow
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by eyeknow » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:08 am

What we need (if I've not already said it..........oh wait, at the beta forums I have! :lol: ) is a one click all grooves/global/quantize/swing option.

I know (very funny, but not for long hopefully) that you can apply "groove" from the groove pool to multiple clips, but there is NO REASON it can't be implemented in the push/drag-drop/quantize level.

Scaper7
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by Scaper7 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:11 am

Ernst wrote:I really appreciate the new groove features in Live 8. They are excellent when creating in the studio but if you, like me, are making tracks and beats on the fly on stage, you need to be able to set a default groove for your project. Things need to be simple and fast. If I'm making a Jackin House track I know that every clip I record is going to be quantized and swing like a mofo. I don't want to have to muck about in the groove pool, finding the right groove, then applying it to the clip I just recorded. If I have a swinging drum beat going and I lay down a bassline, the first 4 bars, or however long it takes me to apply the groove, are going to be straight and sound off - not cool! I also bought the APC to get away from the mouse but in this scenario I have to reach for the damn thing after every clip I record.

Please, it can't be that hard to have a default groove as an option, right?
bumping up a 7 year old post ... I totally agree with Ernst (OP) ... have been sorely missing this feature and workflow since V7 ... have done my best to recreate it in L8 & L9, but the L7 version global groove/swing setup was beautiful in it's elegant simplicity and the ability to program on the fly with all clips sitting in the pocket automatically.

And no it's not the same anymore no matter how you work around it. Ernst is dead right. Please give us the option of Classic/L7 groove setup again.

Stromkraft
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by Stromkraft » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:40 am

Scaper7 wrote:
However, having taken a closer inspection of the actual factory groove maps supplied with Live9 i've notice a lot of them are very inconsistent. For example among the MPC maps (and others) they don't place the first beat accurately on the '1' ... each map has a varying degree of inaccuracy. Hard to understand how this is deemed a better system.
Maybe that's exactly how MPC works if you record it in high time resolution. Why would you want it otherwise? What would be the point?
Scaper7 wrote: There is a work around to get the same kind of global groove going as with Live7. Just load up Swing 16-99 from the groove library/swing folder. assign all clips to it, and dial in swing to suit from 'global groove amount'.
That's a nice workaround and a good tip.

It should be noted that the application of Swing and grooves (and swing is implemented in this area of Live as a groove) are different in the sense that grooves don't have to exactly repeat for every bar. In practice many other swing mechanisms may do the same even if that beats user expectation. That's great! Imperfection is perfect. Perfection is boring.
Make some music!

Scaper7
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by Scaper7 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:51 am

Stromkraft wrote: Why would you want it otherwise? What would be the point?
... because i thought it worked just fine for me in L7 ... very similar to swing/shuffle set ups on every hardware drum machine/sequencer i've used ... apply swing universally and add more or less to taste ... one of the reasons NI Maschine works for me too (basic and functional swing system) ... my preference is to dial in/adjust the desired swing for the track from a hardware control (just like with Maschine)
Stromkraft wrote: That's a nice workaround and a good tip.
As a last resort, it works. However, as the OP Ernst pointed out, it still leaves us having to assign every single clip manually to a groove map which just spoils 'on the fly' programming new clips with Push. The V7 Swing/Global groove system was pretty perfect for this ... (only thing I'd add is a '+/- global groove - fine adjust' parameter on each clip to fine tune swing amount on individual parts if needed)
Stromkraft wrote: Imperfection is perfect. Perfection is boring.
all a matter of taste ... I spent some years tracking real life musicians and all their imperfections too ... for me the tightly snapped swing feels from Maschine or shuffle settings on Roland TR-XoX machines are what i like ... I'm a bit lost without a simple 'swing/shuffle' control ...
Last edited by Scaper7 on Mon May 01, 2017 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Stromkraft
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:24 am

Scaper7 wrote:
Stromkraft wrote: Imperfection is perfect. Perfection is boring.
all a matter of taste ... I spent some years tracking real life musicians and all their imperfections too ... for me the tightly snapped swing feels from Maschine or shuffle settings on Roland TR-XoX machines are what i like ... a bitlost with out a simple 'swing/shuffle' control ...
Maybe, but I think a vast majority of humanity agrees with me in practice. Humans are not machines. Most people that think that each beat must be on the grid don't understand that most music they hear actually doesn't happen on the grid.
Make some music!

Scaper7
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by Scaper7 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:39 pm

Stromkraft wrote:I think a vast majority of humanity agrees with me in practice. Humans are not machines. Most people that think that each beat must be on the grid don't understand that most music they hear actually doesn't happen on the grid.
to my ear, most modern electronic/tech/house music is generally locked to a quantize grid of some sort, swung or straight ... the early machines (TR909 TB303 etc) used for house and electronica didn't give you an option to place a note 'off grid' .... what defined the sound and groove was being locked to a grid with a relentlessly tight swing/shuffle that never budges from the pocket ... those totally quantized grooves filled dance floors all over the world ...

for that sound, a straightforward swing system like V7 works ... but for loops ... samples ... real world musicians ... other styles ... that's another story
Last edited by Scaper7 on Mon May 01, 2017 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

TomKern
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by TomKern » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:59 pm

Stromkraft wrote: I think a vast majority of humanity agrees with me in practice.
A bold statement if ever I saw one :wink:

Stromkraft
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:15 pm

Scaper7 wrote:
Stromkraft wrote:I think a vast majority of humanity agrees with me in practice. Humans are not machines. Most people that think that each beat must be on the grid don't understand that most music they hear actually doesn't happen on the grid.
to my ear, most modern electronic/tech/house music is generally locked to a quantize grid of some sort, swung or straight ... the early machines (TR909 TB303 etc) used for house and electronica didn't give you an option to place a note 'off grid' .... what defined the sound and groove was being locked to a grid with a relentlessly tight swing/shuffle that never budges from the pocket ... those totally quantized grooves filled dance floors all over the world ...

for that sound a straightforward swing system like V7 works ... but for loops ... samples ... real world musicians ... other styles ... that's another story
What you see isn't what you hear. It's what you assume.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:37 pm

TomKern wrote:
Stromkraft wrote: I think a vast majority of humanity agrees with me in practice.
A bold statement if ever I saw one :wink:
Yeah. I'm all about bold statements when I think I have some basis for it. Please remember we're talking about minute timing differences here that IMHO must be assumed can't even be noticed consciously. These differences are more likely to be noticed subconsciously.

Of course, there is only actual knowledge when you conduct multiple studies of double blind tests with the premise of slightly different musical phrases, both on their own and in different contexts. I'm pretty sure someone have already conducted actual research on this subject.

There will be some results, if you do such a study with a good spread sample, that I believe will not be on the "newbie playing the drums" side nor "exactly heard on the grid" side, but somewhere in between with some spread naturally. It's not like this is a novel theme at all. People like some "dirt", whether they are aware of this or not.

Granted, style of music does affect preferences, but in my own music making, as well when I study other's sets, having everything on the grid robs the music of some life that you need to give back. This is where ADSR, dynamics as well as side-chained processing comes in as these affect the perceived timing of how we hear music.

The studies on what people prefer harmonically, at least in the western world, are quite old (about 100 years I think) yet those results are not, as far as I can tell, in dispute, certainly not in different "dance music" circles. I fail to see why on the grid music — as in actually being on the millisecond "on the grid" when heard, not what you see in the DAW — would be expected to deviate from that humans prefer some variety.

Of course there will always be people like myself that loves tension and discord in music, as well as some repetition, and taste obviously must be a factor in there. But on the subconscious level I think we're all "wired" for some things more than others. How that manifests itself will likely be wildly different in different contexts. There are many things in the human psyche.
Make some music!

TomKern
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by TomKern » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:22 pm

I stripped that quote of any concrete reference for a reason :P

But hey I would love to have this sense of feeling like I'm speaking for the masses as well. 8)
Unfortunately I don't :cry:

Otherwise, sure you can argue that timing that adheres to a grid is machine like (in a negative sense). But in the end even these popular diversions from the grid, are diversions from the grid. So these groovy timing preferences (as culturally imprinted as they may be) are still only a slight diversion from a grid.
Once you go completely "off grid" you are battling the expectations of your audience. I.e. You will confuse and bore them to death.

(believe me, I tried it :mrgreen: )

Tagor
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by Tagor » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:34 pm

you saying:

we need to know the grid to know in what kind you can be off grid ?

remembers gridy critters critical ?
Image

i would like to see doted and uneven beats @ the push note-repeat function-grid.

i had a script from TomViolence doing exactly this via clyphx. but the python format has changed
so its useless now.

http://beatwise.proboards.com/thread/18 ... peat-rates

Stromkraft
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:02 pm

TomKern wrote:I stripped that quote of any concrete reference for a reason :P

But hey I would love to have this sense of feeling like I'm speaking for the masses as well. 8)
Unfortunately I don't :cry:

Otherwise, sure you can argue that timing that adheres to a grid is machine like (in a negative sense). But in the end even these popular diversions from the grid, are diversions from the grid. So these groovy timing preferences (as culturally imprinted as they may be) are still only a slight diversion from a grid.
Once you go completely "off grid" you are battling the expectations of your audience. I.e. You will confuse and bore them to death.

(believe me, I tried it :mrgreen: )
I think you utterly and totally misunderstand what I wrote there.
Make some music!

TomKern
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by TomKern » Mon May 01, 2017 7:45 am

Tagor wrote:you saying:

we need to know the grid to know in what kind you can be off grid ?
Hell, if I know what I was saying it was Sunday afternoon ahead of a holiday :wink:

i would like to see doted and uneven beats @ the push note-repeat function-grid.

i had a script from TomViolence doing exactly this via clyphx. but the python format has changed
so its useless now.

http://beatwise.proboards.com/thread/18 ... peat-rates
So can the Push note repeat function not be changed anymore via clyphx control surface actions anymore? Or did just the precise way to change it change? (I haven't used my Push in a long while)
In the later case I'm sure you could just change the new const.py file (of clyphx) in the same manner as the one in the thread was altered.

TomKern
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Re: Global groove needs to come back for LIVE beat making!

Post by TomKern » Mon May 01, 2017 7:47 am

Stromkraft wrote: I think you utterly and totally misunderstand what I wrote there.
I'm sure I did :mrgreen:

Happy Workers (paradise) Day to everyone out there 8)

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