Please differentiate items in the browser

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Angstrom
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Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by Angstrom » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:05 pm

Items in the browser are nearly impossible to tell apart, they are hard to find and work with because they all live in a massive list and look nearly the same as each other.

EG: all these items
  • A Default EQ device
  • An instrument rack
  • A rack of 3 different VSTis, with 4 effects applied
  • A single snare drum preset
  • An Operator preset
  • A midi effect
  • A selection of 6 snare drum presets, that are interdependent
  • A full drum kit
  • A default Operator synthesizer
  • A preset rack of different effects
all live under one roof. Here: Image

All of these very un-alike objects are nested deep in the same massive unfolding list of similar icons.


Here's a quiz.
See if you can guess what these different icons from my library represent. Each of the above named devices/presets/etc is represented. So it should be pretty easy to glance at them and say "that's a drum, and this is an EQ unit" Right? OK, GO!

Just look how different a Snare drum is from an Arpeggiator. *ahem*
Image


And in use? .. it's a recipe for RSI

Click, unfold, fold, click, scroll, scroll, click, click, scroll, drag.

Jarvisimon
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by Jarvisimon » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:28 pm

I can kind of see where you're getting at. However, everything has a default name which describes the instruments perfectly adequately. I've gotten used to how things are laid out, it's quite straightforward to me and never leaves me scratching my head.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good idea, (good organisation is always welcomed), i'd just rather them concentrate on more important improvements, such as better user control scripts and anything that helps the way we interact with the software.

However, first and foremost item on the agenda is stabilising Live as present reading still doesn't encourage me to upgrade to 8.

Angstrom
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by Angstrom » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:58 pm

Sure it's simple, but it's outmoded.

User interaction
Q: Explain to me where EIC2 is.
A: everywhere
Q: how do I reach it
A: you must know the names of the things you do not know, unfold folden things, load stuff up and see if it seems like it might be part of EIC2.
Q: I used search and loaded a piano, made with operator, is that part of EIC2?
A: no


This is the problem with interface design. No one can understand why it is important. The current system is always "fine".

if Live had better content filtering and access it would be easier to use, simple as that.
Sure a telephone directory is easy and nice and linear and no-one ever saw a problem with it. Until computers arrived and added search, and people used it and they realised that the process they had got used to could be done so much better.

currently if you add a drum rack and then want to add an eq to that drum and then want to add another drum and then a saturator to the whole rack, then an arpegiator to one component you will find that all the (very different) items you need are scattered around a long long list, which needs folding and unfolding and scrolling.

I suggest that different items which get used at the same time should be accessible at the same time. Different items should have different access points and different items should be differentiated from each other.
items should be filterable by context or tags.

leinad
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by leinad » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:16 pm

Angstrom wrote: Q: Explain to me where EIC2 is.
A: everywhere
Q: how do I reach it
A: you must know the names of the things you do not know, unfold folden things, load stuff up and see if it seems like it might be part of EIC2.
Q: I used search and loaded a piano, made with operator, is that part of EIC2?
A: no
I totally agree! Sometmes I have to look at my activated licenses just to make sure that I actually have it there. This is really a mess.

A funny thing, today in the morning I was just fooling around trying to create a nice device chain, and the scrolling around and looking for what I'm after drove me instane, so I posted this thread, which might be a short term solution to the problem:

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... 27&start=0
8.1, Windows 7 (32 bit)

arafel
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by arafel » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:17 am

+1.

Live has a browser system that just does not keep up with the rest of Live.

Icons? Colors? Dynamic multi-tag search/highlight/hide? Something plz!
2.8ghz Quad Mac, Live 9.77, Remote25, Maschine 1, Fa-66 optical link, Samson 65a. Dog hair.. lots.

Tarekith
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by Tarekith » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:29 am

Yes please.
Tarekith
Ableton Forum Administrator
Inner Portal Studio - Professional Audio Mastering

leinad
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by leinad » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:59 am

arafel wrote:Dynamic multi-tag
Perfect! Get the library with predefined tags (ie 'delay', 'additive synth') as well as having the ability to add user defined tags ('like it', 'forget it'), as well as good interface to select/combine/exclude tags from a search would be great. And have the info in a fast database.

I really like your idea. Yes, also color coding, icons, all that would help so much.

I have a bunch of NI instruments, and even the ability to sort sounds by color is truely great, so I can assign a custom color to my favorite sounds and have them on top of all the others. NI has been working hard on the "find your sounds" issue, and while it's not perfect, it does help a lot.
8.1, Windows 7 (32 bit)

djgroovy
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by djgroovy » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:45 pm

Better browser? Probably my second biggest wish for improvement in Live right now, apart from session automation. So yes please.

Drekj
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by Drekj » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:03 am

A characteristic based sound search engine similar to Kore Player would be perfect. With the current browser the melody is gone by the time I find the right sound.

malutki
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by malutki » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:33 pm

record the melody first, find sound later

stable Live 8 first, Changes later

browse forum first, make music later


AAAARGH!
i did it agaaaiiinn :mrgreen:
I'm going home

leinad
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by leinad » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:49 pm

make music first, get pissed off with the browser to a degree that the mood is spoiled, post request to forum.
8.1, Windows 7 (32 bit)

Angstrom
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by Angstrom » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:14 pm

leinad wrote:make music first, get pissed off with the browser to a degree that the mood is spoiled, post request to forum.
that's what happened to me when I posted this

I was assembling a Session Drums Kit, blindly of course, because you can't preview them, then going looking for an EQ 8 to try and modify the hit I loaded, then looking for another drum to complement, but the browser list was now unfolded down to devices (EQ8) so I had to navigate that big list back to the part of itself which is all about drum hits. So, click drag fold unfold click drag - oh no, now I'm in the Racks section which has a part called drums, or am I in Devices ... whose devices are titled similarly ... so click drag click drag fold, wait , what was I looking for again? Oh hits, yes - of course a Drum sample would be in the same list as an EQ Device, and a preset for a synth, and a ... wait ... what was I looking for again ? ... click drag scroll

yes, make music first you say.
Excellent idea.
really, a great one

garyboozy
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by garyboozy » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:34 pm

i wholehearted +1. the browser has been in need of an overhaul for tiiiiiime.

something that may make your browserizing infinitesimally less tiresome; you can double-click any of the browser's main icons (devices, plugins, 3 x folders) to fold all the enclosed folders. more of a 'start your browse from scratch' reset, really, but handy nonetheless.

H20nly
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by H20nly » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:53 am

I'm all for getting Live 8 fixed and working, but having a better system with how the library content is stored and managed seems to me like good housekeeping. It has bothered me for a while now how the updates behave in regards (or should I say disregards) to the library.

Organizing or rather, making the browser organized, in a more intuitive way would be higher on my list than a lot of the off-the-wall-feature requests that I've seen. A lot of that stuff is tripe unless you're one of a dozen or so users that actually use Live in this or that particular way... anyway, without digressing too far into obscure wannabe facts, my point is this... everybody uses the browser... especially the new user. Its a launchpad for everything and thus a prime time location for both tidiness and logic.

So a big + 1 to Angstrom's plea for order

Angstrom
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Re: Please differentiate items in the browser

Post by Angstrom » Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:24 am

H20nly wrote:I'm all for getting Live 8 fixed and working, but having a better system with how the library content is stored and managed seems to me like good housekeeping. It has bothered me for a while now how the updates behave in regards (or should I say disregards) to the library.
Yes.

Also, some people seem to be replying to feature requests with "no more features, they need to fix Live" type of posts. Now, of course, I agree that Live needs the upcoming bugfix, but there will still be a Live 9 (and 10) at some point, and so its still worth mentioning areas requiring (eventual)improvement.

Also, I consider user interaction, through things such as the browser and the general interface to be great areas to focus on. The 'duller' parts of the app are those that actually let you create music quicker, to get where you are going without thinking about it.
I would say that improving the user experience of what is already there is the best upgrade possible. Live's simple interface now hides a wealth of features, and I mean it hides them! So re-assessing the old and overwhelmed interface is long overdue. simplicity is not just "hidden stuff", it is "ease of use"

You might not anticipate how the experience could be better, or how a smoother experience could help you, indeed you might be very comfortable with the existing UX, but that doesn't it can't be improved. I think it can, and it needs to be if Ableton want people to fully enjoy the content that they provide.

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