Copy protection improvement

maxpol · Post by **maxpol** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:56 pm

At the moment the copy protection seems heavily based on the hard disk identity.
I would very very much like to see a copy protection scheme which doesn't depend so much on that.

alternatives are:
- reading the serial number of the mac (possible?)
- using the Ethernet ID (definitely possible)
- using a hardware dongle (like the XS key and ilok)
I know some people don't like dongles. I Love them! it makes life 10000 times simpler.

As it is, the unlock system prevents me from:
- booting the same mac from an external HD: very useful as an emergency backup OS
- changing my hard disks without worrying about my copy of LIVE: I'm always buying bigger and better HDs, and change these much more often than change Macs

Copy protection is a very difficult issue. I think companies willing to help their users should start looking at implementing ALTERNATIVE copy protection system: if people could choose between a dongle and a challenge/response, a lot of hassles would be solved, and I know for a fact that it doesn't mean that much more work... it's more work, sure... but the way the industry works at the moment is clearly punish legitimate users with operationnal hassles... and the business cannot o on like that forever... at some point, it has to become simpler, and more flexible.

I used to work for a software instrument (plugin) company and I'm always interested in feedback on this topic...

thanks
Maxpol

robbmasters · Post by **robbmasters** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:20 pm

Just replaced the main HD in my PC, and when I re-installed Live it re-authorised no problem. Admittedly the old HD is still in there, it's just not the main HD anymore.

On the other hand SampleTank required me to get a new authorisation - and since they only give you a limited number, that was a little annoying.

So in general, I'm happier with a dongle too.

klangsulfat · Post by **klangsulfat** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:05 pm

The option from Native Instruments to "deauthorize" the computer is a very useful thing. You can sell your computer or change any component as often you like - without loosing authorization counts.

maxpol · Post by **maxpol** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:12 pm

Yes except if like me you have 3 music computers.. in this case you cannot fully use the product your bought. It's the situation I'm in and I've contacted them about this recently...
The NI copy protection for Komplete 2 (and other things I suppose) is the worst case scenario, and a real nightmare for me

I have one mac at my music "cellar", one mac in my flat and a laptop for road use. I only ever use one at a time, but the laptop is really slow (1.5 GHz G4) and can only be used as a plan B machine...
with my Logic dongle, my Machfive/GRM tools ilok, no problem....

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:12 pm

Recently I was in the situation to work in a duo project at the colleague's studio.

--- He works with Logic Express, I work with Logic Pro:
No problem, I took my dongle with me, plugged it in his computer - go!

--- He doesn't have Reaktor, I use and rely on Reaktor4:
No problem, I temporarily disabled my account online and enabled it for his computer - go!

After the project was done, I easily transfered the account back to my computer.

--- Now, he doesn't have Live, I wanted to work with Live:
Only solution was to take my Laptop with me and transfer bounced audio tracks between his computer and my Laptop all the time.

I wish, Ableton would extend their online registration system so that accounts can be disabled and enabled at any time - like with NI's system.

jasefos · Post by **jasefos** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 10:37 pm

maxpol wrote: I know some people don't like dongles. I Love them! it makes life 10000 times simpler.

I love dongles too ... so long as you treat dongles with the same respect as your other music equipment (e.g. your expensive hardware synthesisers and effects units for example and DON'T lose them) dongles are quite liberating compared with Challenge/Response unlock systems.

I have a small USB hub to which I leave my dongles permanently connected to ensure I don't break them out of the back of my laptop and most important so they aren't easily misplaced/lost.

Dongles are effective at allowing single simultaneous use of an application. Multiple installations shouldn't matter and dongles permit this situation.

There's nothing worse than being refused more unlocks for a legitimate license through having to reinstall an OS, upgrading system drives, etc. Fortunately I haven't consumed my unlocks with Live yet however I'm not looking forward to eventually having to appeal to them for more unlocks when the computer system I'm currently using have finally had their day ...

I'm sure in such situations the Ableton's would be fair however the wait for the decision would be a real "nail-biter" ; )

maxpol · Post by **maxpol** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 10:44 pm

buttercup wrote: After the project was done, I easily transfered the account back to my computer.

problem: the Native Instrument KOMPLETE 2 does not use this system: their system is a little different because once you deactivate one machine you are never allowed to activate it again!!
and if only this was linked to the serial of the machine, it would be okay, but it reads the serial of the boot drive, so it's not very well done...

I think piracy is still encouraged by software companies today because things haven't changed much in the past few years....

however I must point out that of all the companies using a challenge system, Ableton is probably the least fussy, and the demo mode is really cool for gigs and emergencies...

cheers

krikor · Post by **krikor** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 10:54 pm

Dongle for me is a bit annoying, i carry enough stuff when i go play, and i don't want to have to bring more cables and hub for this, and i f i ever forget to take the Xkey i'm fucked!!! i already forgot some stuff for my live and i could always handle it, but in the case of the Xkey it would be different... I have Logic7 and i always leave the key home when i'm on the road for this reason. Native system of protection seems fine to me...and i actually i like the ableton system of protection so why change it???????

jasefos · Post by **jasefos** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:19 pm

Perhaps instead a compromise in form of a similar fashion to NI's de-authorisation system is a good idea as suggested earlier in the thread. This would be far less problematic to implement in Ableon's existing protection system. An dce-authorisation tool and web interface are the missing puzzle pieces.

So why is it people lose/forget/misplace/break important things like dongles when they don't do the same for the laptop the software is run on ?

Personally, carrying around a hub loaded with my XSkey and Syncrosoft key is hardly a problem .... I've found a hub which has an inbuilt retractable cable to make to improve convenience. I've never lost a dongle yet (most of my music making these days is outside the studio).

I find carrying around external Harddrives far more of an annoyance (particularly most requiring external power supplies).

maxpol · Post by **maxpol** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:25 pm

jasefos wrote:Perhaps instead a compromise in form of a similar fashion to NI's de-authorisation system

As I said this is the absolute worst because (with K2 at least) you CANNOT reauthorize a machine that has been deauthorized, EVER!!!

and let's remember all of this requires web access and I resent the dictature of web-access more and more... I want a dingy little house in the country with no phone at all (to work, and do nothing else)

this is only my (opinionated) view

but to reply to Krikor,
That's why I'm saying that MODERN software companies should offer THE CHOICE between an ilok product and an unlock product, in the product box... this would be modern, and I believe it's the only totally new solution that's possible at the moment...
and providing both options doesn't seem like a hugely complicated issue...

yours
mp

krikor · Post by **krikor** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:48 pm

jasefos wrote:So why is it people lose/forget/misplace/break important things like dongles when they don't do the same for the laptop the software is run on ?

Because shit happens
And in this case your are burnt

jasefos wrote:I've never lost a dongle yet (most of my music making these days is outside the studio).

Well good for you
But when i go play in clubs it's a bit more dangerous than when i go make music in a studio or at a friend's place, and i don't wanna take the risk...

STEIN · Post by **STEIN** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:38 pm

DONGLE SUKS, WHEN YOU USE THEM A LOT ,ON LAPTOPS, THE USB PORT GETS LOOSE, AND WHEN YOU PLAY ON LIVE SHOWS , YOU HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF THE DONGLE, MORE THAN YOUR CAR KEYS . DONGLES ARE THE WORST IDEA FOR TRAVELING.

bencodec · Post by **bencodec** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:21 pm

yeah, just on the odd chance that it matter, i'm gonna put my vote in here and say that dongles are a pain to work with. I already have to deal with an XS key, and having to carry around a USB hub jus tso i can have my dongles plugged in would be a serious pain.

They might not be such a big deal if i didn't have to transport my computer everywhere with me but for a gigging musician my dongle scares me. if something should go wrong in the middle of a tour and i should somehow lose my dongle how would i ever get a replacement in time to continue the tour.

oh, on a similar note, let me thank you ableton for making your software downloadable to registered users online. this is something i found out the hard way that emagic had stopped doing when in a pince i needed to reinstall without the CDs on hand.

warabunga · Post by **warabunga** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:48 pm

fuck dongels!
I didn't read your thread carfully, but I'm very happy with the actual situation! never change a runnig system. Whats all the fuzz about registration? just get people to buy more live instances, that would be a direct ableton support, instead of making them spend more money on registration problems... keep things simple and cheap ;-)

peace!

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:17 pm

warabunga wrote: I didn't read your thread carfully,
[...]

Whats all the fuzz about registration?

Well, read the thread and you'll find out.

Copy protection improvement

Copy protection improvement

Re: Copy protection improvement

Re: Copy protection improvement