Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

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Laura_Live
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Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by Laura_Live » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:50 pm

! Thanks :D

Kevin Rothi
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by Kevin Rothi » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:13 pm

I think a better way to implement this would be to have something in the rightclick context menu that would allow the user to just skip the freeze step and just go to flatten directly. Keep freeze in there, too, because sometimes it's useful for CPU conservation and a couple other things.

friend_kami
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by friend_kami » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:30 am

Kevin Rothi wrote:I think a better way to implement this would be to have something in the rightclick context menu that would allow the user to just skip the freeze step and just go to flatten directly. Keep freeze in there, too, because sometimes it's useful for CPU conservation and a couple other things.

this.

alex.the.forge
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by alex.the.forge » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:01 am

Kevin Rothi wrote:I think a better way to implement this would be to have something in the rightclick context menu that would allow the user to just skip the freeze step and just go to flatten directly. Keep freeze in there, too, because sometimes it's useful for CPU conservation and a couple other things.
yeah I wouldn't like to lose freeze, most of the time I use it for creating clips by option + dragging the frozen clip to a new audio track (which effectively flattens it) so I can create a number of clips from the same track. I wouldn't want to have to set up a new track each time when at the moment I just 'unfreeze' then carry on until I want to make another clip

Simbosan
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by Simbosan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:38 am

Change freeze to unload from memory any VST/Instrument/FX on that track, they aren't being used and Live definitely can load and unload VST on the fly. So why not?

That way you wouldn't need Flatten at all, and it wouldn't be a destructive edit.

S
Ableton 9 Suite - Ozone 5
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33tetragammon
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by 33tetragammon » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:04 am

Kevin Rothi wrote:I think a better way to implement this would be to have something in the rightclick context menu that would allow the user to just skip the freeze step and just go to flatten directly. Keep freeze in there, too, because sometimes it's useful for CPU conservation and a couple other things.
this.
they should keep both.

sporkles
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by sporkles » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:37 am

33tetragammon wrote:
Kevin Rothi wrote:I think a better way to implement this would be to have something in the rightclick context menu that would allow the user to just skip the freeze step and just go to flatten directly. Keep freeze in there, too, because sometimes it's useful for CPU conservation and a couple other things.
this.
they should keep both.
I think what's actually sought here is having flatten available without having to freeze first. The the two are related, but by no means the same thing, so removing the distinction between them is not the solution.

Simbosan
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by Simbosan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:11 am

sporkles wrote:
33tetragammon wrote:
Kevin Rothi wrote:I think a better way to implement this would be to have something in the rightclick context menu that would allow the user to just skip the freeze step and just go to flatten directly. Keep freeze in there, too, because sometimes it's useful for CPU conservation and a couple other things.
this.
they should keep both.
I think what's actually sought here is having flatten available without having to freeze first. The the two are related, but by no means the same thing, so removing the distinction between them is not the solution.
Not completely different, they both render the track to WAV. The same thing. The only difference is that in Freeze the instruments are kept in memory wasting RAM. I'm not aware of any difference in the WAV produced by Freeze and the WAV produced by Flatten. Maybe you know of one?

If you did what I suggest you would have all the advantages of Flatten but without losing your midi.

I could be missing somethin, I'm relatively new to Ableton...

S
Ableton 9 Suite - Ozone 5
Room full of guitars!
Akai EWI USB : Loads of Sample Modeling instruments (the best ever!)
M-Audio FastTrack Pro
Turbo Nutter B*stard >>>> WINDOWS <<<< PC
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sporkles
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by sporkles » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:42 am

Simbosan wrote:
Not completely different, they both render the track to WAV. The same thing. The only difference is that in Freeze the instruments are kept in memory wasting RAM. I'm not aware of any difference in the WAV produced by Freeze and the WAV produced by Flatten. Maybe you know of one?

If you did what I suggest you would have all the advantages of Flatten but without losing your midi.

I could be missing somethin, I'm relatively new to Ableton...

S
Both create wave files, correct, but the two have rather different purposes: freeze "suspends" the devices, so as to free
up CPU, whereas flatten is final; it ditches the devices originally in the track, and, leaves you with only the rendered
file. Freeze's only purpose is to free up resources, but Flatten can also be used creatively, for chopping, stretching and
mangling the resulting file. So what you're suggesting should instead be incorporated into Freeze, while Flatten should be
kept, but moved up at the same level as Freeze, so you didn't have to go through Freezing first.

Simbosan
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by Simbosan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:56 pm

sporkles wrote:
Simbosan wrote:
Not completely different, they both render the track to WAV. The same thing. The only difference is that in Freeze the instruments are kept in memory wasting RAM. I'm not aware of any difference in the WAV produced by Freeze and the WAV produced by Flatten. Maybe you know of one?

If you did what I suggest you would have all the advantages of Flatten but without losing your midi.

I could be missing somethin, I'm relatively new to Ableton...

S
Both create wave files, correct, but the two have rather different purposes: freeze "suspends" the devices, so as to free
up CPU, whereas flatten is final; it ditches the devices originally in the track, and, leaves you with only the rendered
file. Freeze's only purpose is to free up resources, but Flatten can also be used creatively, for chopping, stretching and
mangling the resulting file. So what you're suggesting should instead be incorporated into Freeze, while Flatten should be
kept, but moved up at the same level as Freeze, so you didn't have to go through Freezing first.
Yes I know what they do, and the chopping freezing can be done with a frozen track, just drag it to another track and bingo. I am saying that the 'suspend' device call should also 'unload' the device so that you get BOTH the CPU saving AND the RAM saving AND you don't have a destructive edit AND you have the WAV so you can chop it about as a new track if you wish AND you no longer have any real need for Flatten.

S
Ableton 9 Suite - Ozone 5
Room full of guitars!
Akai EWI USB : Loads of Sample Modeling instruments (the best ever!)
M-Audio FastTrack Pro
Turbo Nutter B*stard >>>> WINDOWS <<<< PC
Simbosan on Soundcloud

alex.the.forge
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by alex.the.forge » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:23 am

Simbosan wrote:
sporkles wrote:
Simbosan wrote:
Not completely different, they both render the track to WAV. The same thing. The only difference is that in Freeze the instruments are kept in memory wasting RAM. I'm not aware of any difference in the WAV produced by Freeze and the WAV produced by Flatten. Maybe you know of one?

If you did what I suggest you would have all the advantages of Flatten but without losing your midi.

I could be missing somethin, I'm relatively new to Ableton...

S
Both create wave files, correct, but the two have rather different purposes: freeze "suspends" the devices, so as to free
up CPU, whereas flatten is final; it ditches the devices originally in the track, and, leaves you with only the rendered
file. Freeze's only purpose is to free up resources, but Flatten can also be used creatively, for chopping, stretching and
mangling the resulting file. So what you're suggesting should instead be incorporated into Freeze, while Flatten should be
kept, but moved up at the same level as Freeze, so you didn't have to go through Freezing first.
Yes I know what they do, and the chopping freezing can be done with a frozen track, just drag it to another track and bingo. I am saying that the 'suspend' device call should also 'unload' the device so that you get BOTH the CPU saving AND the RAM saving AND you don't have a destructive edit AND you have the WAV so you can chop it about as a new track if you wish AND you no longer have any real need for Flatten.

S
what makes you think it's wasting all this RAM? are you having specific problems that make you think RAM is being wasted? I'm not sure this is the case at all, or if it is it is negligible.

When a track is frozen, what we are hearing is the audio file playing back 'under the hood', with the visual representation of the frozen track. you only need to see how quickly it copies to an audio track if you option + drag a frozen clip - it's already an audio clip, so it uses the same resources as playing an audio clip.

Simbosan
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by Simbosan » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:29 am

RAM is what instruments use when they are loaded in memory. When a track is Frozen, the instruments are NOT unloaded, and the RAM used by instruments is not negligible, you think Omnisphere has a light footprint? Why would you think instruments have negligible memory footprint?

I have spoken to Abes about this very point, I am 100% sure that a frozen track uses the same RAM as an unfrozen one, if not more (cos of the extra ram for the wav).

S
Ableton 9 Suite - Ozone 5
Room full of guitars!
Akai EWI USB : Loads of Sample Modeling instruments (the best ever!)
M-Audio FastTrack Pro
Turbo Nutter B*stard >>>> WINDOWS <<<< PC
Simbosan on Soundcloud

alex.the.forge
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by alex.the.forge » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:15 am

Simbosan wrote:RAM is what instruments use when they are loaded in memory. When a track is Frozen, the instruments are NOT unloaded, and the RAM used by instruments is not negligible, you think Omnisphere has a light footprint? Why would you think instruments have negligible memory footprint?

I have spoken to Abes about this very point, I am 100% sure that a frozen track uses the same RAM as an unfrozen one, if not more (cos of the extra ram for the wav).

S
hmmm.. ok, just never noticed a problem myself

sporkles
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by sporkles » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:47 pm

Simbosan wrote:Blah
You just don't seem to get the point, which is: sure, your 'unload from RAM' suggestion is all fine and dandy, but what we're
talking about is the possibility of doing either step (freezing or flattening) independently of the other. If you cut out
flatten in favour of "your" freezing, you have to freeze and drag to a new track in order to get a "flat" track. To me, your
arguments are starting to sound more and more like yet another "I don't use this feature, ergo it shouldn't be in the app".
Which really isn't something I'm going to spend another second on.

Simbosan
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Re: Remove distinction between FREEZE and FLATTEN

Post by Simbosan » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:03 pm

I didn't actually write 'blah' I checked!

I pointed out a great feature that would have the advantages of freeze AND flatten, and you play the internet forum games of implying that all the arguments I put forward add up to 'blah'. This makes you an internet forum troll.

I won't post anymore except to point out that the my version of freeze would not be a destructive edit and in return for this you just have to click and drag. There's no blah, there is reasoned argument backed up by sound justification of combining RAM and CPU saving into a single non destructive edit. I cant say anymore without pointing out your unpleasantness.

S
Ableton 9 Suite - Ozone 5
Room full of guitars!
Akai EWI USB : Loads of Sample Modeling instruments (the best ever!)
M-Audio FastTrack Pro
Turbo Nutter B*stard >>>> WINDOWS <<<< PC
Simbosan on Soundcloud

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