!!!!!.....::::: GROOVEBOX :::::.....!!!!!

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urbanaut
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!!!!!.....::::: GROOVEBOX :::::.....!!!!!

Post by urbanaut » Sat May 28, 2011 11:49 pm

Image

The Ableton GrooveBox!

This would be an amazing addition to the Clip Boxes in Ableton Live 9.

Swing - Adds swing based on a chosen sub-division (2nd, 4th, 8th, 16th, 32nd etc...) and allows the user to introduce timing randomness as well.

Pocket - Allows the user to offset the start of a note ahead or behind the beat up to the limit of the chosen grid resolution, as well as being able to introduce timing randomness as well.

Accent - This is where it gets even more interesting. This allows the user to design an accent pattern and then apply different velocity levels based on the accent pattern. The most basic example of the this would be an 8th note hi-hat pattern. the user selects 4 8th notes of hi-hat MIDI notes, then selects the first 4 squares in the accent matrix, then applies a different amount of velocity to each note. An possible outcome could be strong-weak-medium-weak. This is the pattern I have inserted into the example image. This allows the user to quickly design humanistic accent patterns to static drum parts, which add a sense of motion, dynamics and realism to otherwise flat drums. One could create many more interesting and complex pattern simply by engaging more boxes and assign different velocities to each box. 7/8, 9/8 and other patterns are possible. Also, if a pattern is 4 notes long, but 8 notes are selected, then the pattern repeats itself on the 5th note. The Amount and Random sliders do as they would expect to do.

Quantize - It makes sense to me to include the quantize function in the GrooveBox as well, but to add to it also, to make it more robust and comprehensive. The standard quantize controls are there, as well as the ability to create Tuplet. For those that don't know a Tuplet is a unique grouping of notes over a different rhythmic grouping. A standard example is 5 beats over 4 beats. This allows the user to define any Tuplet over the current grid value. This is soooo needed, in my opinion.

IMPORTANT!!!

Everything in my GrooveBox design is selection based, so that the chosen settings can be applied to all notes or only those notes that are selected. For instance, if I want to add different swing values to the hi-hat and the kick, I can do that by selecting only the hi-hat notes, dialing in the amount I want, then hit apply, then select the kick notes, dial in the amount I want, then hit apply. This allows the user to create advanced, humanistic grooves. Loose but tight, as some might say.

Please, chime in and share ideas on this, as I have worked hard on it's concept and design, but I'm sure I've missed things.

Feedback is very welcome!!

Thank you,

Richard Nash
"Don't worry baby. The doctor is gonna cut the ugly right out of you!" - Anonymous

urbanaut
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Re: !!!!!.....::::: GROOVEBOX :::::.....!!!!!

Post by urbanaut » Sun May 29, 2011 4:07 am

Nobody's digging on this?
"Don't worry baby. The doctor is gonna cut the ugly right out of you!" - Anonymous

Forge.
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Re: !!!!!.....::::: GROOVEBOX :::::.....!!!!!

Post by Forge. » Sun May 29, 2011 12:36 pm

Live 8 has a quite advanced groove feature

rchrdnsh
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Re: !!!!!.....::::: GROOVEBOX :::::.....!!!!!

Post by rchrdnsh » Mon May 30, 2011 12:18 am

Is there any way to quickly edit the swing of individual sounds, a group of sounds or an entire clip with Ableton's Groove Engine currently?

Is there any way to quickly adjust the pocket of sounds without having to select them and then command dragging them?

Is there any way to create realistic accent patterns as simple or as complex as desired and then apply those patterns across many different sounds and clips?

Is there any way to quantize notes to user defined Tuplets of any combination like 5 over 4, or 9 over 7, etc...?

Is there any way to quickly add realistic human randomization to individual sounds or an entire groove pattern?

As far as I know, the Groove Engine in Ableton simply analyzes and copies the groove pattern of the current MIDI clip and then stores it in a library. You can set a few different parameters, which is good, and I do use it frequently, but I'm more concerned about creating the grooves in the first place. At this point, for me to create a groove that feels natural and moves me, I have to lay out my pattern, then edit the timing and velocity of my MIDI notes almost one at a time and this takes a while. I want this GrooveBox so I can create and massage my groove patterns much much quicker then I do now, so as to save time but still get the result that I want. Playing the grooves in is also an option but I find MIDI's general timing inaccuracies to be frustrating to say the least.

Please, if I am incorrect, or I'm missing out on the some of the more subtle features of the Groove Engine, please let me know.

urbanaut
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Re: !!!!!.....::::: GROOVEBOX :::::.....!!!!!

Post by urbanaut » Tue May 31, 2011 6:59 pm

Ok, if nobody is interested in this that's fine, but does anybody know if I can make this for myself using Max for Live?
"Don't worry baby. The doctor is gonna cut the ugly right out of you!" - Anonymous

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Re: !!!!!.....::::: GROOVEBOX :::::.....!!!!!

Post by Forge. » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:37 am

urbanaut wrote:Ok, if nobody is interested in this that's fine, but does anybody know if I can make this for myself using Max for Live?
have you looked into Live's groove feature? you can do everything you outlined there.

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Re: !!!!!.....::::: GROOVEBOX :::::.....!!!!!

Post by rchrdnsh » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:08 am

I know the Groove Engine editor pretty well, and I have gone through the documentation from Ableton also. As far as I know, the groove engine effects the entire clip, and not just individual note lanes, and there is no swing functionality at all, unless I am mistaken, I can't create accent patterns for more complex rhythmic phrases and I can't quantize to my own defined tuplets on a note by note basis. The Groove engine appears to be a much different animal then what I am proposing.

My ideas may not be appealing to most people simply because they may not know what they are missing. In the Groove engine currently there are the following parameters:

Base: Chooses the resolution of note values that will be affected by the chosen groove. This is good, but not specific.

Quantize: Adjust the amount of quantization that is applied BEFORE the groove is applied. Again, this is nice but not what I'm after.

Timing: Adjusts how much the groove pattern will effect any clips which are using it. Again, good but not what I'm getting at.

Random: Adjusts how much random timing variation that will be applied to clips using the selected groove. The problem with most 'random' settings is that they are truly random. A drummer, on the other hand, is not truly random at all. The randomness is simply a product of human imperfection playing a specific accent pattern, like the most classic example of the 16th note hi-hat shuffle from 70's funk. Strong-Weak-Medium-Weak is the accent pattern, and within that accent pattern a drummer will naturally vary slightly in timing and velocity from hit to hit, but he/she will still follow the general pattern. When you have even hi-hats and you apply some randomness to them you won't get an accent pattern with added humanization, you simply get random levels and placements for all notes involved. Not very human at all.

Velocity: Adjusts how much the velocity of the notes in clips will be affected by the velocity information stored in the groove file. Good, but not specific enough for me.

Amount: This is a global parameter, and scales the overall intensity of Timing, Random and Velocity for all of the available groove files.

All this is definitely a good start, and good for the general feel of a track, but none of this addresses how a drummer thinks and behaves when they play. I want a set of tools that allows me to create an authentic MIDI groove pattern without micro adjusting every single note until it's perfect, to get the feel of a real drummer. I want to save time, because I have to write a lot of music.

What I've outlined above in my GrooveBox would be close to achieving that, I think. Again, I probably haven't thought of everything that a real drummer could do, but I think this is a good start, and definitely more advanced than almost any groove editing platform that I've had the pleasure of using. I have not used them all though, so I cannot say for sure.

The Ableton Live manual says that grooves apply to the whole clip at once, and if you want to apply the groove to a single voice, you should extract that voice from the chain... this is EXACTLY what I'm trying to avoid here. One of the biggest points about my GrooveBox is the idea that you can apply the settings to a single note, a selection of notes, or the whole clip. This means that I can apply a certain level of swing to only the hi-hat, and not the kick, and then I can apply more swing to the kick after the hi-hats are done. The pocket is the same. I want to apply a little pocket to the snare, and a little more pocket each one of my layered claps. I select the snare notes, apply the pocket, then select the claps and apply more pocket, one by one. I can also put notes slightly ahead of the beat, to create intensity and to mimic the feel of groove like Sambas and Batucadas, which tend to be slightly ahead of the beat, which adds to their excitement. The point of this is that nothing has to be done all together, but if I want to apply the same swing to the whole clip (which is highly undesirable almost always) I can simply select all of the notes and adjust the swing of them together. I'm not bound by this though.

btw, there is no swing parameter at all. I don't want to use MPC73% or whatever, I want to create my own.

I hope this goes further to explaining what I desire out of Live and drum programming, and it's current limitations as far as I can tell.

RN

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Re: !!!!!.....::::: GROOVEBOX :::::.....!!!!!

Post by Forge. » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:10 am

melodiouspunk wrote:....
btw, there is no swing parameter at all. I don't want to use MPC73% or whatever, I want to create my own.

I hope this goes further to explaining what I desire out of Live and drum programming, and it's current limitations as far as I can tell.

RN
there are swing groove files, and you can adjust the amount the groove is applied - what is different that you are missing?

there is a lot to read there, but from what I can gather the main thing you want is the ability to apply groove to individual notes. +1 to that, I agree it would be good

but at the same time, I personally like to keep at least the kick separate and do use "extract chains" sometimes so that I can load a kit and then access drums individually.

but just asking for "apply groove to individual notes" is a far more realistic request as Ableton are unlikely to make such a device as they already have the groove feature. A better approach for you might be to very concisely, like in point form, outline the things you are missing as briefly as possible - believe me I'm speaking from experience, they've told me off loads of times for using far too many words and trying to find solutions rather than emphasising my problem so THEY can find the solution. ;-)

rchrdnsh
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Re: !!!!!.....::::: GROOVEBOX :::::.....!!!!!

Post by rchrdnsh » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:46 pm

One of the main things I want is scalable editing based on selection. I think this is the best way to describe it.

But the main thing I desire is a comprehensive groove editing pane that thinks more like a musician and less like Ableton, I guess. The whole point about real humanization comes from years of frustration with computer programmers making programs that are made for musicians but don't think like a musician thinks. How in Logic, instead of quantizing to eighth note triplets I have to quantize to twelfth notes (wtf!?!?!), but that's just one example. I've been a professional musician for a while, went to school for music, play multiple instruments, etc... and while I feel that the innovation that Ableton has put into their program is tops in the industry, which is why I prefer it over other platforms, I still feel that they can do more. More on the musical side of things.

The idea of quantizing to tuplets seems so basic to me, yet it does not exist in Live, or most other programs for that matter. My profs from school would laugh at that, but most of them compose with pen and paper still, so they're kind of behind the curve.

Maybe there simply isn't that many traditional musicians using Live, and that may be why this hasn't been met with a better response. I've shown this to friends of mine who are professional drummers who tour the world with major label artists and record all the time and they wondered why these things weren't already in a program like Live. These things are so fundamental to musicians it's weird that they aren't easily possible.

NI is adding some of these features to Maschine, but I'd love to see Live take the lead on this.

So, in closing, I think that I desire more musical thinking in general in regards to features and workflow.

RN

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Re: !!!!!.....::::: GROOVEBOX :::::.....!!!!!

Post by rchrdnsh » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:13 am

Also, when I'm creating beat patterns I like to see all my notes for each sound/instrument/etc... all together so I can make the separate patterns work properly. I absolutely despise separating the notes into separate midi clips because then I have to switch back and fourth between the patterns, which drives me nuts. The way Drum Rack is formatted now give me the ability to edit the pattern at once, then process the sounds separately, which is one reason why I use Live. This is the workflow I like the most.

The most important thing behind my desire for a GrooveBox or whatever you want to call it, is to have the ability to quickly create CONVINCING grooves. I feel that the feature set as it is now is not adequate for what I am trying to achieve on a daily basis. It is certainly possible to do so, but it requires too much time and effort to do it non-stop all the time. These tools conceivably could allow me to get the results I want in much less time and trouble, which is what I ultimately want.

Thats all :-)

RN

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Re: !!!!!.....::::: GROOVEBOX :::::.....!!!!!

Post by rchrdnsh » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:06 am

Any other thoughts at all anybody?

I'm all about ingenious new ways to improve workflow in terms of musicianship.

MP

Street Spirit
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Re: !!!!!.....::::: GROOVEBOX :::::.....!!!!!

Post by Street Spirit » Tue May 22, 2012 8:06 pm

Bump headbutt kick smack whatever they call it now. but yes this is my biggest gripe with groove pool to select a part of the audio or midi clip and apply groove swing feature to that one part so it has some nice variation in the sound. I agree 100% with the OP :) and if max4 live is the workaround consider me sold.

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