FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

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alltomorrowsparties
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FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by alltomorrowsparties » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:16 am

Ableton's session view handles audio Latency differently to all other DAWS when software monitoring is turned on.

Recording in session view always places recorded Audio late on the timeline when software monitoring is on. Other DAW's including Ableton's arrange view put the audio exactly in time.

To make it easier for people to understand the problem, here is an analogy:

"Consider you are a guitarist and you are standing right beside a drummer. The two of you are playing together perfectly in time. Your guitar amp is 15 feet across the room. "


This real world scenario is exactly the same as what happens in all DAW's whilst recording with software monitoring turned on.

The drummer is analogous to the click track/pre-recorded track leaving Ableton.
The Guitarist (you) is analogous to you playing along to a click track whilst recording.
The amp 15 feet across the room is analogous to the 15 ms or so of latency you would typically experience whilst software monitoring.


So do you play 15 ms early in order to compensate for the 15 ms it takes for the sound to leave the amp and travel across the room?

No- you will play along with the drums- if you are a 'perfect' guitarist playing along with a 'perfect' drummer you will strum the guitar at the exact same moment the drums are hit. You do NOT play 15 ms early.

As it currently stands, in Abe's session view you do need to play 15ms early in order for everything to play back in time.

I understand why the Abe engineers have designed the session view and only the session view in this way. Because of the real time nature of it, (read:latency) they traded timing accuracy for timing consistency which is beneficial to those on slower machines. Imagine a DJ with a 512 buffer whose re-sampling in a club...suddenly the loop plays back 512 samples "early". It'd be even worse if he was sampling decks or whatever cos that'd be 512 in and 512 out latency.....worse still if he's monitoring with latency inducing plugins and/or latency inducing plugins on other tracks with PDC turned on. Again worse still if the previously re-sampled stuff is further re-sampled as the effect would be cumulative.



Abe decided to just circumvent all that. Which is fair enough i guess, but for those of us who have low latency and understand the signal flow and various ways in which delays can accumulate within the signal flow, it'd be nice to have the option to turn this feature/flaw off without resorting to hardware monitoring.


edit: this has nothing to do with warping "time and space" as someone suggested below! I'm not talking about eradicating inherent digital latency here, I'm talking about the audio playing back from DISK which is (iirc!) NOT dependent on time travel, vortexes, other dimensions or any other funny stuff like that.
Last edited by alltomorrowsparties on Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:10 am, edited 4 times in total.

alltomorrowsparties
Posts: 115
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by alltomorrowsparties » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:53 am

funken wrote:Pretty complex stuff there Nico, but why not just turn off direct monitoring?

Yeah I could turn it off alright, but I'd like a way to software monitor with FX without having Ableton shift everything late. No other DAW does that!!

mauronedj
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by mauronedj » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:58 am

I think thats a good topic!

Have you compensate the latency in the Audio Options?
Do that work?

I don't have this particular need because I use the DSP mixer of my RME Fireface UC, but I think that's a good add to the Live features!

alltomorrowsparties
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by alltomorrowsparties » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:56 pm

A quick search through the threads indicates that people have been asking for this for the last 8 years or so!

What exactly is the hold up?

simmerdown
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by simmerdown » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:56 pm

asio$all can do wonders

crumhorn
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by crumhorn » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:40 am

try Reduced Latency When Monitoring on the Options menu.

I was tempted to add RTFM but it doesn't seem to be documented anywhere.

Only official description I can find is in an 8.2.7 beta announcment thread.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=170482&p=1335918&hi ... g#p1335918

There really should be an appendix in the manual describing the function of every menu option.
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

(Allow me to plug my guitar scale visualiser thingy - www.fretlearner.com)

alltomorrowsparties
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by alltomorrowsparties » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:07 pm

crumhorn wrote:try Reduced Latency When Monitoring on the Options menu.

I was tempted to add RTFM but it doesn't seem to be documented anywhere.

Only official description I can find is in an 8.2.7 beta announcment thread.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=170482&p=1335918&hi ... g#p1335918

There really should be an appendix in the manual describing the function of every menu option.
Sorry Crumhorn

Reduced Latency while Monitoring when "on" disables the plugin delay compensation for all tracks that are record-ready OR have the "Monitor" switch set to "IN"

ie it only effects PDC which is NOT the issue here. Do a loopback test and you will understand what I am talking about.

Here is the Gearslutz thread on it which goes into more detail..
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-co ... ost8311007

crumhorn
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by crumhorn » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:40 pm

Ok I see. I understand the problem but misunderstood the description of the Reduced Latency option.

in which case...

+1
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

(Allow me to plug my guitar scale visualiser thingy - www.fretlearner.com)

alltomorrowsparties
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by alltomorrowsparties » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:32 pm

crumhorn wrote:Ok I see. I understand the problem but misunderstood the description of the Reduced Latency option.

in which case...

+1

Ha! no problem. Take it easy :)

Dragonbreath
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by Dragonbreath » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:49 pm

Im sorry my friend but you have zero understanding of the problem at hand. It has NOTHING to do with programming "philosophy" and is the same in ALL DAW's,

If you want to "fix" your problem heres the quick answer

1. A powerfull and stable computer (I would suggest a mac)
2. A better sound card (RME is the best for this if you can afford)
3. Lower buffer and higher sample rate affect the outcome as well

Now if you intersted in understanding the issue I will give it a try.

Any sound coming in or out of a computer (live put aside), is subject to latency, PERIOD!

Its a technological limitation theres no way to remove it, only minimise it (see the 3 previous suggestions)

When you monitoring trough the software what your hearing is subject to this latency, Live will record what you hear, because as a musician thats what you should be playing with, what you hear.

When your NOT monitoring through software, Live assume your monitoring direct trough other means (sound card or external mixer, etc.). The latency is still there your just not hearing because your not monitoring it, so what you were playing will be out of sync with the backing track. Ableton automaticly compensates for this, and in case of error this is were delay compensation comes in. You seem to confuse this with plugin delay compensation, thats another story alltogether.

Maybe you should read the manual and try to understand the underlying issues before barging on forums screaming out that ableton is flawed compared to other daws and its based on a "design philosophy"

I understand what your asking for...

Problem is it defies laws of time and space!

andydes
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by andydes » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:10 pm

In your example, a good guitarist will play 15 ahead so it sounds in time for him and the drummer.

It's not really such a stretch. The guitarist's hand also has to start moving in advance of the beat to hit the string on time (depending on current hand position, velocity of chord or note, etc). Their fretting fingers also need to be in position slightly ahead of the note being played. With practice, a guitarist doesn't think about any of this, they just do it.

Also consider a footballer receiving a cross. They have to predict exactly where the ball is going based only on what they see whilst on the move. They have to time the kick to connect and send the ball to the right point whilst also avoiding defenders and keeper. And all time, the only conscious thoughts in their mind are of Champaign and hookers.

Amazing what the human brain is capable of.

simmerdown
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by simmerdown » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:26 pm

im starting to feel a bit sorry for the Macs, 'an outside device to get reasonable latency'? thats lame

Dragonbreath
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by Dragonbreath » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:49 pm

simmerdown wrote:im starting to feel a bit sorry for the Macs, 'an outside device to get reasonable latency'? thats lame

???

Latency is determined by your cpu power, drivers ( and corresponding sound card) and the settings for that sound card ( sample rate and buffer)

If you can figure out a way for me to use rme drivers with focusrite sound card ol gladly switch to pc


Hardware is very strong determinent of latency, macs dont need to be optimised to reach optimal latency they allready are optimised!

simmerdown
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by simmerdown » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:13 pm

this is not the first thread of this type, always mac users, sounds like an 'optimum' pain in the tukus

so, why again are they twice the price?...you can get a pc with imperceptible latency, some hardware, and a few trips to costco

H20nly
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Re: FIX latency in line with other DAWs?

Post by H20nly » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:20 pm

i have a Mac and a PC... i can achieve no audible latency on either. i use a TC Electronic Konnekt 6 interface.

nice equipment is nice, but you don't have to have a Mac or an RME to get good results.

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