Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

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panten
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Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by panten » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:06 pm

I posted this on the beta forum but I'll also post here to preserve it for all posterity. It doesn't contain anything particularly beta related so I guess it's ok and it's the 11th hour.

I feel that this is an area that has been neglected from the focus of the Push workflow.
For those of us about to purchase Push this seems like a large omission from the full potential of this amazing controller. I've been having a huge internal struggle deciding whether I would be better off getting Maschine or MPC Ren instead and I'm sure LOTS of others will be thinking the same thing.

There are 2 things I think that would really help sell Push to MPC & Maschine users who are looking to get away from the mouse and keyboard for this particular strain of sound design..
1. Non-destructive sample chopping. (Live already has this with 'Slice to new Midi Track')
2. Sampling straight to drumRack Pads.

Non-destructive sample chopping

I think I would be happy enough if Ableton enabled; real-time transient marker threshold, adding/deleting transient marks, adding/deleting warp markers, slicing to new midi track & start/end marker control from Push. This would be enough to be able to get some rudimentary real-time sound design. Especially if you create some personal slicing presents to how you like to work.
Further advanced sample editing would be ideal if we could somehow move the start/end markers in the sample window. For those stray transients that don't pick up the right part of a sample. Simply having the ability to MIDI map the sample Start/Length isn't enough on longer samples and which also don't allow you to go beyond the start/end markers.

Sampling straight to drumRack Pads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZFY5oRrY8A this shows the ideal workflow that Push could have in terms of sampling straight to drum rack pads.

I mocked up an image of how it could be.
Image

It's on a MIDI track but it can have audio routed to it and the recorded result can go straight to the currently selected Simpler or Sampler audio slot.
On the signal level bar you have 3 arrows. Right most one is signal level.
On the left you have record start and finish thresholds if the Arm button is selected, or you can just start recording immediately with the Rec button.

I wasn't sure if this also needed an 'Audio To' drop down box for more control of the routing within the drumRack.

Final statement for this topic: ***Everything should be MIDI mappable.***
Last edited by panten on Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

humnumb
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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by humnumb » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:21 am

panten wrote:I feel that this is an area that has been neglected from the focus of the Push workflow.
For those of us about to purchase Push this seems like a large omission from the full potential of this amazing controller. I've been having a huge internal struggle deciding whether I would be better off getting Maschine or MPC Ren instead and I'm sure LOTS of others will be thinking the same thing.

There are 2 things I think that would really help sell Push to MPC & Maschine users who are looking to get away from the mouse and keyboard for this particular strain of sound design..
1. Non-destructive sample chopping. (Live already has this with 'Slice to new Midi Track')
2. Sampling straight to drumRack Pads.
FYI, the MPC Ren ironically does not allow for a mouseless workflow. Maschine is still the only software/hardware combo that lets you go completely mouse-free and even use it with the computer screen turned off.

panten
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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by panten » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:28 pm

humnumb: get out of my request thread please. Your constant 'Maschine is better than all' diatribe is extremely tiresome. It's the same thing time and again.
Got anything constructive to say about what I posted?

seriously
Last edited by panten on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

humnumb
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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by humnumb » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:52 pm

whoah.. Relax, panten. I was just pointing out that the MPC Ren does not allow for a mouseless workflow since it appeared that you were under the impression that it did.
panten wrote:1. Non-destructive sample chopping. (Live already has this with 'Slice to new Midi Track')
Live's slicing is not truly non-destructive. With Maschine, I can chop a sample without any concern that I'm altering the sound of the source material. With Live, I can't.

In terms of process, they're worlds apart. On Maschine, the process would go one of two ways:

1. Load clip, open sampling mode, select slice. From here you can choose to slice by splitting into equally sized segments (4, 8, 16, or 32 of them), or—predicated on automatic BPM measurements which I find to be as good or better than Live's—sliced on the grid into quarter, eighth, sixteenth, or thirtysecond notes, a process which takes into account global time signature settings. Finally, there's a transient detection mode with adjustable sensitivity which generally works very well, and when it doesn't, individual slices can be added or removed at the user's discretion. Further, each individual slice's start and end points can be manually adjusted (as can the automatically detected BPM) before the slices are applied to a group of pads. (Not possible in Live without setting a shit-ton of warp markers.) Alternately, the slices can occupy just one pad but be spread across the keyboard and triggered via MIDI from a host/sequencer, from an external keyboard, or in Maschine's "Pad/Keyboard Mode". I find this method to be faster, more precise, and more flexible than Live's slice to MIDI feature, and unlike with Live, I don't have to adjust the global BPM to ensure that the slice points are in the right spots and to prevent my sample from sounding all wonky when I'm working on it. I will say that I do like Live's option to save custom slicing settings/racks that are automatically populated with the settings/effects/macro mappings of my choosing.

2. Load a clip onto a pad. Immediately duplicate clip to a second pad. Begin a process of adjusting start and end points and re-duplicating the sample to put just the hits/segments I want on the pads where I want them (I say "hits" because this is especially useful for chopping drum breaks) without even thinking about slicing the whole thing. The entire process is non-destructive and the start and end points for each chop can be adjusted at any point in the future. And of course, I never touch the mouse. I hold duplicate, tap the pad where the sample is, tap the pad where I want to put the copy, and start twisting knobs to focus in on the segment of the sample I want to use.

Also — and again this is just personal preference — I find the pad grouping in Maschine to be much easier to manage than the MIDI-note based shifts in a drum rack filled with samples, or switching between several drum racks on several different tracks.

Anyway, Panten, I commend you for your efforts in trying to make sampling and sound design with Live a more of a hands-on experience. I've been down that road before. Hopefully Ableton is listening.

panten
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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by panten » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:13 pm

Firstly, I apologise for my harsh intervention. Do you remember me from this thread? We have already gone over this stuff and this Request was as a result of that.
The info you posted isn't new and has been discussed a million times by you and others so now, it feels like you're just spamming.

Secondly, I'm aware of the MPC Ren shortcomings. I think you may have misread what I was saying so I'll quote myself.
There are 2 things I think that would really help sell Push to MPC & Maschine users
Note I said MPC and not MPC Ren here. Also note that I did say I was considering MPC Ren but this is a Push Request thread so let's try and keep it on topic.
I have already placed a pre-order for Push hence this thread.

Now for the rest of your post. This is more like it, constructive and that's appreciated.
Most of what you said can be done in Live already albeit not mouse/keyboard free. That was the point of this thread. If you take another look at the Non-destructive sample chopping section from the 1st post.
humnumb wrote:Live's slicing is not truly non-destructive.
In what way? If I right click on a sample and 'Slice to new MIDI track it will non-destructively slice based on the settings and put them into separate pads with a simpler on each. Each simpler contains the loop in it's original form still just with the start/end markers placed on transients etc. You are still able to move them around and refine those points.
Maybe you can elaborate on what you mean by non-destructive. We might mean different things.
humnumb wrote:as can the automatically detected BPM
I'm not actually sure what you mean by this, and it what context could it be carried over to Live?

I personally really like the Pad Overview way of filling the drumRack, even more so that I was beta testing Stray's AWESOME MPDRx Remote Script. It allowed you to step through the PadOverview from the MPD32 and so have access to the full 128 Pads. If shifting the selector were mappable to knobs it would be pretty awesome.
I sometimes like to just get creative and slice a huge audio file to the full drumrack and play around. Push will allow 64 pads to be accessed at any time so I'm really looking forward to that.

Let's try and keep this thread focussed on how we could improve the sample based work in Live and leave the Maschine vs everything else as a reference to draw from.

thanks

p.s. incidentally only 8 people have voted for this idea on the beta forum. Seems to be not that popular an idea. ah well.

humnumb
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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by humnumb » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:56 pm

Apology accepted.

While Live's slicing is still non-destructive, there's a lot of layers created in the process that gets in the way like having to create a new MIDI track containing a Drum Rack populated with Simpler/Sampler devices to hold the slices. With Simpler/Sampler, you can either slice by musical intervals, or you have to warp to be able to set specific slice points. Maschine, on the other hand, can slice in place while still using the same pad (track) and you can change different slicing options (transient detection, fixed grid or equal splits) and even undo the slices on the fly without having to create any additional layers in the process. Also Maschine has automatic BPM detection of the sample (which I find to be as good or better than Live's, and can be adjusted) when slicing, and you can manually adjust the start and end points of each individual slice, and all of that can happen before even applying those slices to a group of pads.

Overall, I just find Maschine to be a much more efficient, low-friction tool for coming up with ideas and creating a bunch of variations on patterns, but that probably comes down to a personal preference thing.

Anyway, I'll leave you to get back to trying to improve Live and Push on that front.

panten
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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by panten » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:36 pm

Thanks,
So essentially what you're saying is that yes Live's slicing IS non-destructive. I see nothing prohibitive about creating a new MIDI track, it's actually a really nice system they have with 'Create one slice per:' and by allowing you to make your own creative presets. It's all the other bits that would allow this process to be done from the controller.

I don't actually see what advantage doing things before committing to pads would give you. In the context of Live (not Maschine please), what we need is:
panten wrote:real-time transient marker threshold, adding/deleting warp markers, slicing to new midi track & start/end marker control from Push
I would add to this wishlist [adding/deleting transient marks]

Once committed to pads what we need is the ability to automap the start/end markers in the sample window as well as the sample start/length parameters.

geekbeats
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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by geekbeats » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:40 pm

Further advanced sample editing would be ideal if we could somehow move the start/end markers in the sample window.
I'm wondering if you are wanting to accomplish the same thing that I can't seem to figure out.

I want to slice a sample across 16+ pads and be able to turn the knobs on PUSH to adjust the start and stop of the individual slices. It seems whatever parameter I change with the knobs applies to each slice. Is it a simple oversight on my part or on Ableton's?

panten
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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by panten » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:50 am

It's possible to do what you want already by going to device mode then hitting a pad. At the top you'll see that next to the drum rack there is another slot for each pad. Select that device slot, then which ever encoder you change will be only for that pad.

I'm really digging on the device mode. Lovely implementation. Just wish we could dig in and out of MIDI & Audio clips in the same way.

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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by geekbeats » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:33 am

panten wrote:It's possible to do what you want already by going to device mode then hitting a pad. At the top you'll see that next to the drum rack there is another slot for each pad. Select that device slot, then which ever encoder you change will be only for that pad.

I'm really digging on the device mode. Lovely implementation. Just wish we could dig in and out of MIDI & Audio clips in the same way.


THANK YOU SO MUCH

This is the solution and it allows me to chop audio and tweak it perfectly. I just tested it.

panten
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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by panten » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:36 am

No problem amigo, glad I could help :)

boderekstits
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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by boderekstits » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:18 am

This is the first time i've watched any sampling tutorials on Maschine. I'm a Live user and nothing else, but before that, I made beats on an MPC1000. This makes me want to get Push and Maschine and use them both side by side. Sampling sure looks a lot more fun on the Maschine.

panten
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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by panten » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:55 am

boderekskits, I couldn't agree more which is mainly the reason for this feature request in the 1st place.
On Push the is currently no method to sample chop using only the hardware.
You must return back to the mouse and keyboard.

By the way, I've never owned an MPC so it would be great to hear your input if you've for any further ideas on how to achieve the most fluid workflow on Push.

humnumb
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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by humnumb » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:04 am

boderekstits wrote:This is the first time i've watched any sampling tutorials on Maschine. I'm a Live user and nothing else, but before that, I made beats on an MPC1000. This makes me want to get Push and Maschine and use them both side by side. Sampling sure looks a lot more fun on the Maschine.
No doubt. When it comes to sampling workflow, Maschine is a no-brainer. Especially if you've been on hardware like MPCs before, you know just how super fast and fun, hands-on sample chopping workflow can be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySW7JthAt3E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZFY5oRrY8A&t=01m08s

panten
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Re: Push - Sample Recording/Chopping workflow needed.

Post by panten » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:28 am

I know this is an open forum to voice one's opinion but could we please try to keep this thread less about promotion of products and more on the workflow between Push and Live. If there's an example you want to show, explain how it can be used/interpreted in the context of Live.
I know this doesn't fit your agenda humnumb but at least try here, you have other threads to spam.

thanks.

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