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 Post subject: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:48 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:09 pm
Posts: 59
Hey all,

Maybe this was already asked, I did a quick search but didn't find it so here I am. I now use Ableton Live for a year now and I must say, I love it, there is just that thing with the drum racks.

I'm not into samples right now. I like more the synth approach. So for my drums I use the VST's Rob Papen's Punch and I also own Tremor.
Yesterday I finally went out to buy Push, which caused wanting better VST support inside drumracks even more.

So let's try to describe my problem together with the work around. Maybe someone knows a better one.

When you want to use a VST inside a drum rack you load the VST in the rack for example on drum "C1". Inside the other drums you then can put an "external instrument" linking to the VST on "C1". Inside the drum racks IO you can then link each note to the actual notes of the VST drums. Now this part is good enough and makes it possible to use Push for making drum clips.

But here is the thing. For each drum in the drum rack, there is a sub audio track. Now this does not work with a VST because if you have 16 drums but only 8 outs, or you want to use the VST build in effects, causing you to route to even less outs, the sub outs off the drum racks don't fit the actual notes which makes it confusing.

My work around for this is to have a midi track loaded with the VST, then have a second track with the drum rack loaded with all external instruments routing to the VST in the previous track. And last, have the outs off the VST also on seperate tracks getting their audio from the first VST track. A lot off tracks then...

So what I want? What would be perfect for me? I want an "external drumrack", like the "external instrument" Ableton plugin. It works just like a normal drumrack, but with the difference you select how many outs it has and how many pads, you only have to load the VST one time, and in the IO you can then route the notes to the correct notes in the VST. The result, only one track with the correct amount sub-audio channels not linked to the notes, but to the actual VST audio outputs. And as an automatic extra, if you load instead of a VST, an external instrument, you can use it with an actual hardware drum machine like for example a Korg Volca Beats or Dave Smith Tempest.

Further improvements for the drumrack is off course being able to access the sub audio channels with the sends, pans,... from Push. But I guess this is already in the making.

So because I'm now also a proud owner of Push, I really want this even more then before. The work around is just to complicated.

Thx and best wishes for 2014...

PS: Should you know a better work around for now? Let me know. I found the work around here for a Drumazon VST (thx to unix23), which is simular: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=196281


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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:13 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 4639
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
Have you tried loading the vst into a slot and setting the settings of that slot to 'all midi note inputs' ?

After that you have a few options. You can illuminate the pads you want to use by loading a dummy device into those slots (you don't need an actual device in. Those slots because they'll be somewhat transparent and each time they are triggers they will still trigger the vst in the original slot).

Also, you can filter out which slots you do Not want to trigger the vst by adding a midi effect device before the vst and setting up the key range of the chain/chains.

I don't read this section of the forum so if you have any questions about this feel free to message me haha

Particularly 18.6 #2 https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/instr ... ect-racks/
Although when I do All Ins, I usually just unfold the drum rack group and use those input selectors (you may have to scroll to the topmost note in the selection drop down)


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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:27 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:09 pm
Posts: 59
Already thx for the reply.

I have the VST setup in the first slot (pad). In the other slots I have put an external instrument linked to the VST. I did this because in the drumrack the note "C1" needs to go to "C1" for kick 1, then "C#1" needs to go to "D1" for kick 2 etc... So with the external instruments in the other slots, I can make these links in the IO. When using the receive all, the pads aren not following the notes of the VST. Or I'm missing something? :?

But anyway, the midi part is quite ok, it's for the audio I made the original post, asking for something better. For example Rob Papen's Punch has 8 audio outputs. How do I link them? Now the drumrack has outputs for all slots, not the outputs off the VST.

Second, when working in Push, the VST in slot 1 ("C1") should be selectable also when for example tapping on a snare in slot 3...

I find it strange this isn't asked before, or I missed it. But there are so many drum VST's out there. All the time you here about NI Battery 4. I have that one also from NI Komplete. And with Push, it just became more important. With Push the drumracks are so much fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:50 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:25 am
Posts: 1106
Location: Berlin
+1


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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:03 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:29 pm
Posts: 9
+1


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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:33 am 

Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 7:02 am
Posts: 15
+ 1


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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:39 pm 

Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 10:46 am
Posts: 77
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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:15 am 

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 9:57 pm
Posts: 139
+1

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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:28 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:43 am
Posts: 37
Location: Germany
++1

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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:48 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:28 am
Posts: 350
Am I missing something here? I used this tutorial and got my SampleTank VST to work just like an external hardware instrument. I put ST on one track and an empty drum rack on a second track and then just followed the video. The only issue I came across is that the External Instrument device wouldn't allow me to use the channel 1&2 output from ST but that might be because 1&2 are used as defaults for the ST track. Even the CC controls worked on the VST parameters as advertised.

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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:09 pm
Posts: 59
It's explained in the first post.

It's mainly for routing the audio in a drumrack. Now each pad has it's own, while a VST or external one, doesn't have outputs for each pad.

And then for Push, access to the audio controls off the drumrack.

With a VST it's also a pain, that the VST is linked to one pad. The other pads are routed with an external instrument to that one pad where the VST is located. So to access the VST parameters from Push, you'll have to tab that first pad.

This thread is basically to ask for a drumrack for external (VST) drum machines. Now the drumracks are more an instrument itself that work with samples. Off course being Ableton, we can do more with them as shown in those tutorials. Also one off the reasons Ableton is great software.

And with all those drum machines out there, being a VST or external, it would make a great extra for Ableton.


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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:14 pm
Posts: 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0vDSqZG900

This short movie shows how to create a some kind of MIDI router to trigger different notes on Drum Rack and send them to the VST plugin..(in my case Addictive Drums 2).

I hope you will enjoy it.

Best regards
Przemek


Last edited by przemuh on Sat May 02, 2015 1:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:08 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am
Posts: 1698
Kibosh wrote:

When you want to use a VST inside a drum rack you load the VST in the rack for example on drum "C1". Inside the other drums you then can put an "external instrument" linking to the VST on "C1". Inside the drum racks IO you can then link each note to the actual notes of the VST drums. Now this part is good enough and makes it possible to use Push for making drum clips.

But here is the thing. For each drum in the drum rack, there is a sub audio track. Now this does not work with a VST because if you have 16 drums but only 8 outs, or you want to use the VST build in effects, causing you to route to even less outs, the sub outs off the drum racks don't fit the actual notes which makes it confusing.


Where are these outs? It sounds like there's a limitation with outs in your VST. I use Fxpansion Tremor in drum racks, but it only has 8 outs and I route these with external instrument so I can submix. This is what you do?

After this I add many samples and Samplers (128s) too, so I don't see these limitations you're referring to.

What do you want to be able to do specifically with each drum voice?
What do you actually do to achieve this?
What results do you get?

I actually don't understand here. What I lack myself is individual freezing of drum rack channels so you can freeze a drum rack and still send individual voices to external effect return channels.

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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:25 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am
Posts: 1698
Kibosh wrote:
The result, only one track with the correct amount sub-audio channels not linked to the notes, but to the actual VST audio outputs.


OK, now I get it better. That needed to be bolded. You want each pad, as before playing the sound you set it to, and in the VST instrument you want to send multiple drum voices to the same drum rack audio channel, correct? Doesn't the actual plug-in affect your ability to do this?

I suppose you could solve this with nested drum racks or instrument racks, but I haven't needed what you're talking about here, so I'm not certain it will work.

Can you give one specific case to work on?

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 Post subject: Re: Drumracks with VST support and an extra Push improvement
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:30 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am
Posts: 1698
Here's one of my own use cases that I managed to solve mainly by grouping, i e nested drum racks.

Prerequisite: Tremor set up with first voice going to main and subsequent going to outputs 2 to 8. In the drum rack, the first chain, usually used for BD is the first pad connected to the first drum voice in Tremor. For the others I use External Instruments for sending MIDI and recieving audio.

Objective: I wanted to mix drum voice 6 and 7 in Tremor together in the same drum rack chain (track), yet retain their respective individual pads for playing .

Solution:
  • 1. I set drum voice 6's output to output 7 in Tremor, which is the same output as drum voice 7 according to my settings. This resulted as both voices being played in both drum rack chain 6 and 7 at the same time.
  • 2. I then set the audio input for chain 6 to output 7 coming from Tremor. I still had 8 drum rack chains, but wanted 7.
  • 3. I selected chains 6 and 7 and grouped them, resulting in another drum rack being created sending its audio to the grouped chain, that I subsequently renamed.

Result: I now have individual pads for playing all 8 voices separately and voices 6 and 7 are grouped and can be treated further together. I have 7 drum rack chains, instead of 8. Well, actually I now have 9, counting the group and the grouped chains, but there's one less track up in the mixer where I work with levels and sends.

On the plus side here is that treating voices together that belong together frees up two of my macros, that I have mapped to the 2 effects sends given to the 4 of the voices in the rack. For when I have Tremor selected I've also mapped the internal Tremor faders, which is a way faster way of setting output levels into the drum rack.

See picture:

Image

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