Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Share your wishes for the future of Ableton Live
Stromkraft
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:07 pm

LFO8 wrote:

That's real good work but not like the way it works in Logic. With Logic you only have to Shift-Option any midi clip and boom, you have an alias clip that exactly mirrors the original clip. More convenient imo.
Alias Clips is actually dead easy and quick to use. You select a clip and choose "inherit" then any manual copy you make the usual way is automatically added to the group of clips that mirror each other, also in Arrangement with the exception of Arrangement recorded clips as that is making new clips.

The only thing I really miss is to able to change clip groove settings on all clips, but that is Ableton's choice to not include in the API for developers.
Make some music!

antic604
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by antic604 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:50 am

Yes, please!!! Where do I vote for this? It would be such a time saver...

Able_Belamy
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by Able_Belamy » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:59 am

Yes, please add it. Every time I arrange something, I'm missing this important feature.
Noblige oblesse.

Stromkraft
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:26 am

Able_Belamy wrote:Yes, please add it. Every time I arrange something, I'm missing this important feature.
As much as I understand the need for making test arrangements quickly I'd like to point out you can have clips playing the same parts a little differently each time. Sometimes this works way better than just repeating the clip exactly the same way. I'm just sayin'.
Make some music!

antic604
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by antic604 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:43 am

Stromkraft wrote:
Able_Belamy wrote:Yes, please add it. Every time I arrange something, I'm missing this important feature.
As much as I understand the need for making test arrangements quickly I'd like to point out you can have clips playing the same parts a little differently each time. Sometimes this works way better than just repeating the clip exactly the same way. I'm just sayin'.
Depends on music type, doesn't it? For what I do 80% of variability over time comes from tweaking the audio and/or MIDI note effects, so if I have a loop that repeats several times over the course of the track I want to be able to update / change it without laborious copy & paste. If you feel superior because you're applying small variances in your sequences, then by all means do that. I know REAL musicians don't use loops :P But let others have the feature they'd find useful, ESPECIALLY since it is a standard in many other DAWs for years already. I'm not running around requesting Chord or Scale effects to be removed, so that people finally learn music theory or to ditch the quantization options, so that people learn their timing?

BTW, the reason for this shortcoming of Live is very clear if you think about its history - it was a tool to play looped clips first and foremost, so it was making sense that if you duplicated your clip it was done to introduce variation, so the changes to do original source didn't have to carry over to the duplicate. But since Ableton decided to also have the Arrangement view they really should have provided the baseline features present in other DAWs. The whole idea of clips being the building blocks of your tune falls apart if there's no link - between Session and Arrangement and within Arrangement - between them. This tool provides a workaround for this, but it's not very easy or intuitive to use: http://www.maxforlive.com/library/devic ... lias-clips. One would think that if a random guy on Internet can do it with Max4Live, then surely Ableton can do it much better in Live itself, right? That is until you think of LFO device, which should have been native to Live as well...

What puzzles me even more, is that Bitwig also doesn't have this feature! I can imagine it can be difficult to code it in Live with 15+ years of legacy code, provisional workarounds and patches; but Bitwig was done from scratch, supposedly to fix all the mistakes of Live... Actually I was ready to purchase it once the v2.0 was announced, until I found out about this.

Stromkraft
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:52 am

antic604 wrote: Depends on music type, doesn't it?
Not at all. Depends on taste and knowledge. There are so many producers, apparently, that assume repetitive means you should repeat the exact same clips in exactly the same way for it to be valid. I suggest this is boring. The best repetitions are slightly different and imperfect, strikingly often also when they appear not to be.
antic604 wrote: If you feel superior because you're applying small variances in your sequences, then by all means do that. I know REAL musicians don't use loops :P But let others have the feature they'd find useful,
What's with you? "I was just sayin'" means what I said is an option to consider. How is that not obvious? Since when is pointing out suggestions for approaches that can work right now, a suggestion that functionality that is requested for any reason should be invalid?
antic604 wrote: This tool provides a workaround for this, but it's not very easy or intuitive to use: http://www.maxforlive.com/library/devic ... lias-clips. One would think that if a random guy on Internet can do it with Max4Live, then surely Ableton can do it much better in Live itself, right?
As I've already pointed out I own and use AliasClips and it's straightforward to use. I just wrote that above, Didn't read that part, did you? Or what are you disagreeing with?

J Garcia aka JGJP is not a "a random guy on Internet". He's a skilled MFL developer that makes great products. Maybe you should try and make something similar yourself in MFL if it's so dead easy?

No-one is questioning Alias functionality wouldn't be great for many users natively in Live, so please stop pretending this to be true.
Last edited by Stromkraft on Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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antic604
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by antic604 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:14 am

Stromkraft wrote:Not at all. Depends on taste and knowledge. There are so many producers, apparently, that assume repetitive means you should repeat the exact same clips in exactly the same way for it to be valid. I suggest this is boring. The best repetitions are slightly different and imperfect, strikingly often also when they appear not to be.
Agree, but you can achieve this in many ways, not necessarily by moving the notes in a MIDI clip. Why do you want to impose a way of working on others? Who are you to judge someone's preference for repetitive - in your opinion! - music? For a lot of people all electronic music is a repetitive "boom boom boom", for others rock is repetitive with the same song structures (verse, chorus, verse, chorus, break, chorus, etc.) and the same instruments being used.

Alias / ghost / linked clips is a tool like any other and people shouldn't be judged for wanting to use it.
Stromkraft wrote:What's with you? "I was just sayin'" means what I said is an option to consider. How is that not obvious? Since when is pointing out suggestions for approaches that can work right now, a suggestion that functionality that is requested for any reason should be invalid?
Because advising people that want to use linked clips to "have clips playing the same parts a little differently each time" is not a workaround or an "approach that can work right now".
It's like someone was asking for how to achieve particular bass sound and you'd advise them to use piano instead, because it is readily available.
How is THAT not obvious?
Stromkraft wrote:As I've already pointed out I own and use AliasClips and it's straightforward to use. I just wrote that above, Didn't read that part, did you? Or what are you disagreeing with? J Garcia aka JGJP is not a "a random guy on Internet". He's a skilled MFL developer that makes great products. Maybe you shoud try and make something similar yourself in MFL if it's so dead easy?
I'm not in anyway trying to belittle the achievements and knowledge of that guy, just meant "random guy" in a sense of "someone outside of Ableton". For all I know he's smarter and knows Max4Live better than most Ableton employees, but it still doesn't make him any less "random" as opposed to the people who are supposed to professionally develop Live. I also never said it's easy to write something like this.

Lastly, no it's not easy to use because you need separate instance of it for each group of clips. So, eg. if I have a bass line consisting of 8 different clips, which I mix and match to - guess what?! - introduce variation to my bass line over time, then I need to have 8 instances in that track alone. On top of that there will be drums, synth lines, some effects, etc. that might need several instances more. This can get messy very quickly.

Instead, if it was implemented natively with some consistent naming / visual scheme or icons, with added browser to manage all that, it would be more user-friendly. Again, I'm not criticising the J. Garcia for what he did, because I can understand there are constraints to what can be achieved via Max4Live; I'm criticising Ableton for not implementing that seemingly obvious and popular feature.
Stromkraft wrote:No-one is questioning Alias functionality wouldn't be great for many users natively in Live, so please stop pretending this to be true.
I've lost you here...

Stromkraft
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:11 pm

antic604 wrote:
Instead, if it was implemented natively with some consistent naming / visual scheme or icons, with added browser to manage all that, it would be more user-friendly. Again, I'm not criticising the J. Garcia for what he did, because I can understand there are constraints to what can be achieved via Max4Live; I'm criticising Ableton for not implementing that seemingly obvious and popular feature.
Stromkraft wrote:No-one is questioning Alias functionality wouldn't be great for many users natively in Live, so please stop pretending this to be true.
I've lost you here...
I'm not arguing against this feature request! OK???? It's like you deliberately attempt to misunderstand in order to argue about something we agree on. What's the purpose of that?

The fact is that right now this feature is not implemented, right? Because of this you're forced to explore alternative approaches. Therefore, suggesting alternative approaches for right now is also part of the process. If nothing else it gives people something practical to reflect upon. Something you did yourself. While one shouldn't limit a request to something existing, being aware of the shortcomings of existing methods while acknowledging their existence, is one input source for ideas about how a feature like this could work. Or shouldn't.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:16 pm

antic604 wrote: Agree, but you can achieve this in many ways, not necessarily by moving the notes in a MIDI clip. Why do you want to impose a way of working on others? Who are you to judge someone's preference for repetitive - in your opinion! - music? For a lot of people all electronic music is a repetitive "boom boom boom", for others rock is repetitive with the same song structures (verse, chorus, verse, chorus, break, chorus, etc.) and the same instruments being used.

Alias / ghost / linked clips is a tool like any other and people shouldn't be judged for wanting to use it.
No-one is being judged. That idea is only in your head. That I express my opinion on something is not invalidating other opinions, conflicting or not.

How one apply any variation, or if at all, is obviously up to each individual producer.

And never mind who I am. I know who I am. Do you know who you are?
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antic604
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by antic604 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:26 pm

Stromkraft wrote:I'm not arguing against this feature request! OK???? It's like you deliberately attempt to misunderstand in order to argue about something we agree on. What's the purpose of that?
Sorry, I was just confused by the language. You said no one is against Live having this feature and then said to "stop pretending this to be true". It's just a weird construct, that's all. In hindsight you likely meant that I thought some people are against having that feature.
Stromkraft wrote:The fact is that right now this feature is not implemented, right? Because of this you're forced to explore alternative approaches. Therefore, suggesting alternative approaches for right now is also part of the process. If nothing else it gives people something practical to reflect upon. Something you did yourself. While one shouldn't limit a request to something existing, being aware of the shortcomings of existing methods while acknowledging their existence, is one input source for ideas about how a feature like this could work. Or shouldn't.
Offering workaround, e.g. using the Alias Clips or looping the clips in Arrangement and then muting the volume in sections when you don't want to hear them; all this would have been fine. But telling people to introduce variation in their clips where it's the opposite of what they want is not.

I don't care for a feature like comping, but you wouldn't see me going to a thread requesting it and advising people to record their takes properly the first time?

Granted, you're incredibly helpful in a lot of threads I saw and seem to be a very knowledgeable and patient guy, so I'm very sorry for this but your remark on repetitive music triggered me :)

GdabZ
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by GdabZ » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:00 pm

Coming from FL Studio I can't help but be disappointed at the lack of patterns or ghost clips.

The fact that it can lead to more repetitive songs (which is not necessarily the case) isn't the issue there. Nobody is forced to use them.

What I find disturbing in live is that Clips in different Scenes can bear the same name while having a different content altogether. I expect the Clip "Beat 1" to be exactly the same wherever it is. And then I do a "Beat 2", "Beat 3", etc. to introduce variations.

I don't have much hope for this to happen as I've seen no feedback from Ableton on the many "ghost clips" "same clips" "linked clips" topics I've browsed. I've read someone in a topic say "I hope they are introduced in Live 7" so it's an understatement that this feature is long overdue.

It's a bummer as I love some other features of Live (like track delay compensation or everything related to audio recording, where FL Studio is way backwards).

Please do something Ableton! Isn't there a ticket system where the users can vote for the next preferred features to come in updates?
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antic604
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by antic604 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:24 pm

GdabZ wrote:Please do something Ableton! Isn't there a ticket system where the users can vote for the next preferred features to come in updates?
There is. I've filed a ticket 5 months ago, but there's only 8 votes (compared to 400+ for grouping of groups):

https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... ca019ee403

GdabZ
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by GdabZ » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:03 pm

Ouh thanks man. Here have my vote ;)

But yeah there's apparently a lot to be done until this ticket will be considered... Try having the author of this topic put the URL in the first post?
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Moog Sub 37 / Korg Minilogue / Arturia Microbrute
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antic604
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by antic604 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:07 pm

GdabZ wrote:Try having the author of this topic put the URL in the first post?
The topic was created in Feb '14 and the OP has 3 posts. I doubt he's active in here :(

GdabZ
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Re: Alias/Ghost/Mirror Clips Petition!

Post by GdabZ » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:50 pm

I'm not sure this will ever be considered. When you're not aware that something cool exists elsewhere, you simply don't need it. As I lack delay compensation for my strings in FL only now that I know it exists in Live...

The industry seems to push towards it though, Cubase, Logic, FL, Maschine all have them. And Maschine is a serious competitor - I guess, regarding Session performance.
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Moog Sub 37 / Korg Minilogue / Arturia Microbrute
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