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Native LFO

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:00 pm
by td6d
'nuff said.
I've wanted this since 2009 and I know there are many others with me.
Over the years I've tried the Max4Live LFO but in hindsight it's just ridiculous.
I have to install another program (half a gig in size) and start it up/run it parralel to Ableton Live just to have my EQ parameter automated.
Is it really that hard to have a simple LFO device? (I'm not a programmer)
For me it's one of the basic devices needed to make music a little more organic.
I'd take an LFO waaaay over a redux, resonators, vinyl distortions, erosions and other gimmicky effects. (no offence to heavy vinyl distortion users :wink: )

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:15 pm
by doghouse
As I read it you want a device that will be used to automate other devices. That would be something very different than any existing Live devices, which only output audio or MIDI.

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:50 am
by pencilrocket
bump
It's lame. We don't want to rely on third-party LFO generator.

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:02 am
by Able_Belamy
word

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:28 am
by td6d
doghouse wrote:As I read it you want a device that will be used to automate other devices. That would be something very different than any existing Live devices, which only output audio or MIDI.
Couldn't it work like a MIDI device? Send a constant midi signal to a parameter, chosen by the user. It's possible by hand, why not automated?

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:22 pm
by JuSchu
td6d wrote:Is it really that hard to have a simple LFO device? (I'm not a programmer)
But I'm one.
If something works as a M4L device, there shouldn't be a problem to implement it as a native device.
M4L devices are also just midi, audio or instrument devices but the LFO works.
Just as the M4L LFOs a native LFO could be an audio or midi device (midi if you want to reset the LFO on NoteOn or change its pitch with the note) which is routing the input to the output with no changes and controls other parameters over the Live Object Model.

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:31 pm
by Idonotlikebroccoli
I've wanted this for literally a decade. Loading projects with m4l in them takes too much time and resources.

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:40 pm
by Angstrom
I updated my Live 9 version and it loaded up amazingly quick, perhaps 3 seconds. Amazing!

Usually my Live 9 takes about 50 seconds to load so I was really pleased, obviously Ableton had fixed something!

Then I remembered that I had unistalled MaxForLive. Ah, so I reinstalled it ... 50 seconds to load again.

This is on topic.

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:39 pm
by doghouse
JuSchu wrote:
td6d wrote:If something works as a M4L device, there shouldn't be a problem to implement it as a native device.
M4L devices are also just midi, audio or instrument devices but the LFO works.
I never use LFO...how do you assign the destination? Guess I'll go open it up and see for myself. I can't think of other native devices that can map to parameters of other devices.

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:20 pm
by Angstrom
The Max LFO maps with a 1-to-1 methodology. Just like the midi mappings, so you can't map two different LFOs to one filter cutoff (for instance).
So I'd hope that if Ableton make a native LFO it is 1-to-many, and uses a relative than an absolute mapping.


This would indeed be a new development for them, but not completely new. Imagine a current Ableton "MIDI" effect such as a Velocity device. It takes input and sends it downstream to whatever devices to the right of it accept velocity data, that means the assignation is done by position in a chain. Now imagine on the velocity device itself is an "outlet" icon. You click that, then you click a downstream device. You have now established a routing. It's conceptually not rocket science.
As far as the modulation ranges of any mapped outlets - we have the macro mapping pane, an established UI metaphor.

All doable. Where there's a will there's a way.

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:24 am
by doghouse
Well I'm not an expert after reading a few pages of Max documentation but it seems M4L has access to the midi mapping functionality in Live, but there are no Live native devices that currently have this capability.

Could Ableton create such a device? I would guess so, after all rack macros can be mapped to parameters. Is it possible that to do so would require a major overhaul of the code base? Maybe.

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:26 am
by JBlongz
I believe this is why Bitwig employees left Ableton. I can see how dependence on MAX (Cycling74) is holding back Ableton from major releases. Bitwig has made leaps foreward in this regard. LFO's are so modular that I end up with massive routing ideas with many great options.

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 5:56 pm
by Fuzel
Bump for this.

If Live 10 (Live X?) doesn't implement native LFOs then I'm probably jumping to Bitwig.

I love the look,feel and flow of Live but I'm jealous of other DAWs' native modulation abilities.

One of the developers posted an explanation as to why there weren't any native LFOs a few years back. Apparently it would entail a massive rewrite of Live - something you don't want if your trying to simultaneously add new features while remaining backwardly compatible.

But as already mentioned - if M4L can already do it why can't Ableton?

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 8:12 pm
by Angstrom
Fuzel wrote:Bump for this.

If Live 10 (Live X?) doesn't implement native LFOs then I'm probably jumping to Bitwig.

I love the look,feel and flow of Live but I'm jealous of other DAWs' native modulation abilities.

One of the developers posted an explanation as to why there weren't any native LFOs a few years back. Apparently it would entail a massive rewrite of Live - something you don't want if your trying to simultaneously add new features while remaining backwardly compatible.

But as already mentioned - if M4L can already do it why can't Ableton?
I think you might be referring to Robert Henke's post, and as I remember (always badly) in that post he pointed out that LFOs and recording automation in session would require the much bandied about "total rewrite". After that a few coders explained what that really means in terms of a large project, but the thread became apocryphally known as "live needs a total rewrite"

Well, my point is ... Since Live 9 we can record automation in session. If you recall L9 took many years to arrive, much of the L9 development centred around delivering session automation. So, it seems a major hurdle as identified by Robert all those years ago has now been removed.
I see that L10 is taking an equally long time to develop. Plenty of time.

BTW - I consider the Henke-still-posts years to be the golden era of this forum.

Re: Native LFO

Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 8:35 pm
by JBlongz
The rewrite was totally worth it. Still, I hope they considered a way to have ZERO dependence on MAX. If they didn't consider native LFO, there must be lead in the drinking water. Honestly, if it wasn't for PUSH and implementation of note repeat, Ableton would already be history for me. Bitwig has accomplished so much, so soon...and those said features are all I'm waiting for. Their Unified Modulation System is insanely deep. The way I can nest devices with their LFOs are beyond amazing. I kind of wish Live would now fold into Bitwig and become one again, with better implementation.