Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Share your wishes for the future of Ableton Live
pencilrocket
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by pencilrocket » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:54 pm

Tarekith wrote:My favorite quote from Ableton's Loop event last year was from Carla Scarletti (Kyma) who said that if developers implemented everything everyone wanted, they'd all be making the exact same app.
No offence but that's lame excuse for using their developing resource into features few people want. wow
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[erm]
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by [erm] » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:32 pm

I think it's pretty misleading to assume Ableton doesn't listen to what people want given the recent updates, not everything asked for by everyone had been addressed, but clearly a lot of what people have asked for has been adressed over time in a way that keeps to their vision of what Live should be. It may not be what every single person individually wants, but given what's been implemented I think they clearly know the pulse of their user base overall.

Some people will never be happy, as Pencilrocket has made clear over the course of his last few hundred posts. Those views don't always reflect the majority of Live users however. Never the less, Ableton is always interested in what people think think and wish for, both here and on the Centercode suggestions.
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Angstrom
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Angstrom » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:29 pm

For sure Ableton listen to users. We can see with features such as Dual Screen, which was added around 9.2 , which was a feature which users asked for and was (possibly) pushed forward and made real due to user requests. There are plenty of others of course. The PDC issues being squashed, and I'm sure that Push users are all pretty happy with the features added in the recent update too.
Ableton do listen and implement many suggestions. If anyone looks at the Centercode wishlist you can pretty much see things being ticked off.

If they wanted an easier life they could be a little bit better about communicating that they have listened though. Instead of a flat "No" I'd suggest everything could be made easier by saying : "Thank you we will consider that in future"

I doubt the users expect each wish to be implemented, but most of us hope that our problems are at least understood. And that takes an affirmative response. "Thank you we will consider that in future"

But if I'm told an absolute negative like "Nobody uses tagging, so we will not include it", then it is in my nature to try and prove a case for tagging. If I am told that hierarchic browsing is a good strategy for a taxonomical relational database I will try to explain my point again and again until I hear the words "Thank you, we will consider that in future". At which point I will assume my point has been understood as a data entry.

In the case of the browser, over many years of me explaining that a browser object has many filterable attributes, not just one, I never ever got the impression that my point was understood. I agree that they were listening but "Thank you for you input, we will consider that in future" would have been a good thing to hear. I would have felt that the effort was not wasted.

aschneider
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by aschneider » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:12 am

No offence but that's lame excuse for using their developing resource into features few people want. wow
No, it is not. The amount of work done by Ableton in order to support ours as musicians is inestimable and when compared to most developers, remarkable. I find very difficult to understand how some people in the creative industries can just throw away statements out of context. On how intricate the whole process is:

A primary cause of complexity is that software vendors uncritically adopt almost any feature that users want.
--Niklaus Wirth

Requirements cannot be observed or asked for from the users, but have to be created together with all the stakeholders.
--Vesa Torvinen

Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability
--Edsger W.Dijkstra

When you yet to do 100% of what somebody wants, you need a perfect match, and it's pretty rare that you have a perfect match between what you thought people needed and what they actually need. If you try instead to do 80 percent of what they need, there's a pretty good chance you'll hit a sweet spot.
--David Heinemeier Hansson

And it goes on and on. Just take a look. So spot on:

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?QuotesOnRequirementsAndUsers

Tarekith
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Tarekith » Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:29 am

Angstrom, when were you told that tagging would not be included? I have to admit, it surprises me that anyone at Ableton would say that.

yur2die4
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by yur2die4 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:56 am

No one needs a vocoder
https://youtu.be/KOTZk0fD6Qs

Angstrom
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Angstrom » Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:15 am

Tarekith wrote:Angstrom, when were you told that tagging would not be included? I have to admit, it surprises me that anyone at Ableton would say that.
short version: I may be misremembering !
but there was a giant thread on the the old Getsatisfaction forum which came prior to Centercode and I think it was closed with a comment that tagging would not be featured.

longer version: in an IM

Tarekith
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Tarekith » Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:43 am

Ah, so quite some time ago. Very interesting, thanks. :)

Angstrom
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Angstrom » Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:51 am

bloody ages ago
2012 !!

Many things change I'm sure.

Tarekith
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Tarekith » Sun Jul 31, 2016 11:09 am

On the plus side, tagging would make it easier for people with Push to find their content too, so who knows. Maybe there's hope still :)

Stromkraft
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:12 pm

Idonotlikebroccoli wrote: With that said, I think that most of the most popular requests ( https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... 4faf86c4d1 ) are things that would benefit all Live users, both composers, performers, beatmakers and novices/dabblers.
I'm inclined to agree with that. However you need to sort by "Most reported" in order to see the suggestions in vote order that currently is:

323 votes: Grouping within a group by steveprimiani 2 Years ago
291 votes: Edit Multiple Midi-Clips by ansolas 2 Years ago
277 votes: In-clip audio editing by Fanu Last Year
220 votes: Freeze and Flatten side-chained tracks by lukewarren 2 Years ago
212 votes: Bounce in Place by Borez 2 Years ago
211 votes: Tagging plug-ins by category by Fanu 2 Years ago
208 votes: Comping too by timshiel Last Year
183 votes: MP3 export by Elijahsymons 2 Years ago
182 votes: Automation snap to Grid by lukewarren 2 Years ago
180 votes: More than 8 macros by Valiumdupeuple 1 year ago
Make some music!

spacecat
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by spacecat » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:13 am

I would be so happy if they added a legacy mode browser (browser of live 8 ) option...

Selectable from the preferences menu...

I would do (almost) anything for this...

Stromkraft
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:33 pm

spacecat wrote:I would be so happy if they added a legacy mode browser (browser of live 8 ) option...
Unfortunately I think Live 8 is the legacy mode.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:40 pm

aschneider wrote: No, it is not. The amount of work done by Ableton in order to support ours as musicians is inestimable and when compared to most developers, remarkable. I find very difficult to understand how some people in the creative industries can just throw away statements out of context. On how intricate the whole process is:

A primary cause of complexity is that software vendors uncritically adopt almost any feature that users want.
--Niklaus Wirth

Requirements cannot be observed or asked for from the users, but have to be created together with all the stakeholders.
--Vesa Torvinen

Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability
--Edsger W.Dijkstra

When you yet to do 100% of what somebody wants, you need a perfect match, and it's pretty rare that you have a perfect match between what you thought people needed and what they actually need. If you try instead to do 80 percent of what they need, there's a pretty good chance you'll hit a sweet spot.
--David Heinemeier Hansson

And it goes on and on. Just take a look. So spot on:

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?QuotesOnRequirementsAndUsers
As a software developer I couldn't agree more. Typically many people that are angry because their simple little feature haven't been implemented yet — How hard can it be? — feel this way pretty much because they don't understand the complexity of developing modern software in general and real time software in particular. Software can have a delicate balance and isn't just the sum of features stacked on top of each other.

On the whole I feel Live has a pretty good balance these days, even if I also have features I'd like to see implemented and occasionally bugs that I'd like to see rectified or addressed somehow.
Make some music!

H20nly
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by H20nly » Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:49 pm

Tarekith wrote:On the plus side, tagging would make it easier for people with Push to find their content too, so who knows. Maybe there's hope still :)
either way, Browser Rant (reprise) is playing as the background music...

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