Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

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Angstrom
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Angstrom » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:17 pm

spacecat wrote:I would be so happy if they added a legacy mode browser (browser of live 8 ) option...
Selectable from the preferences menu...
I would do (almost) anything for this...
I think they can do better than the L8 Browser because lets face it - it wasn't very good really. There was no kind of decent reliable search and the database kept getting fouled and needed rebuilding all the time.
What it did have is a simplicity in use . For example - showing more than one attribute column. Or the ability to have three browsing marbles set up to different locations. Or the ability to save custom folders directly, etc. In use is was quick, but functionally it was under-nourished.

Stepping backwards to L8 is not a good fix for the current problems.
Of course it's worried me for years that Ableton signed off on so many bizarre things in the L9 browser, like single attribute columns, Or the "search" is so poor that it can make users think the library is empty! The way users become resigned to using "Places" as a parallel user library for the bizarrely uncontrollable upper categories which are really filters on the Db. And many, many more. What worried me is that they didn't see them as problems!

But those issues can't be fixed by stepping backwards. Any resolution the many Browser issues have to be forward looking, and cater to Push and the API. But there it is. It exists now. To resolve it requires moving forward. I really really hope that there are now a few database people now on Ableton staff who will have spent the last 4 years rectifying past wrongs.

(to the tune of "Windmills of your mind")

spacecat
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by spacecat » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:08 pm

What im missing is the continuous playback when auditioning

- the three marbles are gone? (I am kind of ignorant to l9 because i havent upgraded yet since the browser fiasco) -or used live much in favor of another daw as it totally killed my workflow)
Did some betas (but only for a minute because auditioning was still broken in them)

The "marbles" as you call them.. A simple marble with a "+" sign would be nice - so one can add as many locations as one wants

For me, The L8 browser was fine.. The searches were good and speedy, and i never had to rebuild the DB since it came out...

"Stepping back" as you call it would be a step forward for me... All the bells and whistles are weird... It might have been undernourished in your eyes, but now its bloated in mine..lol

I guess im kinda oldskool as (again, for me , subjectively) ableton was always about live and not push or any other hardware... I had my launchpad and my kb controller... It was samesame...

Having said that , i think push looks very nice and i am all for implementation.. As long as the core and everything else doesnt get rewritten to solely accomodate a piece of hardware.. (Subjectively again)

I really hope they have some musical spiritual wonderful genius farsighted insider people working on it...
-for one, the auditioning bug is on their list (confirmed to be fixed sometime) which is a move in the right direction and dang beautiful. (For the lack of a better word)

Anywho, i fired L8 up yesterday (the 32bit version with m4l) and it felt good. I look forward to coming back to live sometime as, well, true love never dies.

Anyway i am optimistic.

I wish you all love and happiness.

P.s. Congrats on your "rant" album, angstrom.. Brilliant!;)
Stromkraft- nice name:p
H20- smart!
Everybody - you are amazing.

H20nly
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by H20nly » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:37 pm

back at cha spacecat... stay optimistic :wink:

mekanism1200
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by mekanism1200 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:15 pm

I hated the browser at first but once I discovered ease and power of "PLACES" that all changed. I now have my own folders for my most used stuff like custom Eq's, Compressors, Racks etc.. in there. I hate folder diving so doing it this way makes getting to my stuff a few mouse clicks faster.

However, I hated trying to figure out how to get to my stuff from the Push, it seemed I had to completely change the way my browser is set up to make it easy to find things.

Stromkraft
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:27 pm

Angstrom wrote:
…those issues can't be fixed by stepping backwards. Any resolution the many Browser issues have to be forward looking, and cater to Push and the API. But there it is. It exists now. To resolve it requires moving forward.
Hear, hear.
Make some music!

Stefan Jantschek
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Stefan Jantschek » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:55 am

Angstrom wrote:
Live9 is already so good that I wonder what kind of big improvements will they still add.
I can think of a bunch of huge features that they could add but almost certainly will not.
For example: I've mentioned to them before about the AfterEffects method of nested compositions. In AE you can have mulitple timelines (like multiple arrangments), and they can go inside a "clip". It sounds complex, but in reality it's very intuitive and incredibly flexible. It's something which would be amazing in Live, but they will never do it.

It would potentially solve the "can I have multiple regions in a clip" issue
It would potentially solve the "having multiple songs in one set" issue
It would potentially solve the "how do I comp" issue
and many more.

You may think it would be a resource hog, but what happens in AE is a "pre-compose" - effectively freezing the encapsulated arrangement inside the clip as an audio render. So in fact it's lighter on resources! You might think it's too complex to use, but AE users have been managing with it since about 2005.


Well, they won't do that. They hate the idea of groups in groups, never mind parallel nested arrangements!

it's a good example of "features nobody but me wants" ;-)
You are shure not alone...!

Jun 18, 2008:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=93170&start=0

Greets,
S. Jantschek

irrelevance
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by irrelevance » Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:04 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Live9 is already so good that I wonder what kind of big improvements will they still add.
I can think of a bunch of huge features that they could add but almost certainly will not.
For example: I've mentioned to them before about the AfterEffects method of nested compositions. In AE you can have mulitple timelines (like multiple arrangments), and they can go inside a "clip". It sounds complex, but in reality it's very intuitive and incredibly flexible. It's something which would be amazing in Live, but they will never do it.

It would potentially solve the "can I have multiple regions in a clip" issue
It would potentially solve the "having multiple songs in one set" issue
It would potentially solve the "how do I comp" issue
and many more.

You may think it would be a resource hog, but what happens in AE is a "pre-compose" - effectively freezing the encapsulated arrangement inside the clip as an audio render. So in fact it's lighter on resources! You might think it's too complex to use, but AE users have been managing with it since about 2005.


Well, they won't do that. They hate the idea of groups in groups, never mind parallel nested arrangements!

it's a good example of "features nobody but me wants" ;-)
Why is it folks always look elsewhere for inspiration for what Live should be? If some other software floats your boat that much it makes sense to just get on board that train also. I bought Live because it offered an alternative to the traditional cubase methodology and used both side by side for a few years and now exclusively work in Live. I don't have any of those issues that you feel need solving but if I did, buying the software that solved it would resolve those issues without moaning on Ableton forums :wink:

Angstrom
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Angstrom » Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:20 pm

"Why is it folks always look elsewhere for inspiration for what Live should be?"
Because it's handy to have a concrete example to reference a complex idea.
Suggestions are ways of proposing things which could be improved. The previous user was doubting that anything "big" could be added, and I suggested a "big" thing I'd like as a broad example. And that is why I said "it's a good example of "features nobody but me wants" . In specific reference to the title of this thread and the topic of the difficulty of satisfying a disparate group of users.

It's for sure that they will add their own ideas and "big" things in future. I think encapsulated clips would be a good thing to add in L10. That's my preference.

What I find objectionable is people who look at any user suggestions and say it's invalid, or "moaning" ... the retort which is equivalent to : "If you don't like it here then go back to your own country!!!11!!!" Look at what you have said "I don't have any of those issues that you feel need solving but if I did, buying the software that solved it would resolve those issues without moaning on Ableton forums "

You seem to be saying that if I should stop using Ableton and instead use Adobe After Effects Video Compositing software? If I want encapsulated clips in Live.

What sort of a response is that? You are aware that Live 10 will have additional features, right? Most of the features they added will be drawn from some inspiration or other.

bwax
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by bwax » Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:39 pm

Angstrom wrote:
"Why is it folks always look elsewhere for inspiration for what Live should be?"
Because it's handy to have a concrete example to reference a complex idea.
Suggestions are ways of proposing things which could be improved. The previous user was doubting that anything "big" could be added, and I suggested a "big" thing I'd like as a broad example. And that is why I said "it's a good example of "features nobody but me wants" . In specific reference to the title of this thread and the topic of the difficulty of satisfying a disparate group of users.

It's for sure that they will add their own ideas and "big" things in future. I think encapsulated clips would be a good thing to add in L10. That's my preference.

What I find objectionable is people who look at any user suggestions and say it's invalid, or "moaning" ... the retort which is equivalent to : "If you don't like it here then go back to your own country!!!11!!!" Look at what you have said "I don't have any of those issues that you feel need solving but if I did, buying the software that solved it would resolve those issues without moaning on Ableton forums "

You seem to be saying that if I should stop using Ableton and instead use Adobe After Effects Video Compositing software? If I want encapsulated clips in Live.

What sort of a response is that? You are aware that Live 10 will have additional features, right? Most of the features they added will be drawn from some inspiration or other.
Dude you are just way too logical and reasonable for the internetz. Does not compute!!!

Stefan Jantschek
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Stefan Jantschek » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:00 am

bwax wrote: Dude you are just way too logical and reasonable for the internetz
Possible.
bwax wrote: does not compute...
Disagree.

He is one of the few guys here worth to listen.
And i recommend that explicitly for the devs as well... :)

Greets
*S.

Grill Pheiss
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Grill Pheiss » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:15 am

[erm] wrote: Some people will never be happy, as Pencilrocket has made clear over the course of his last few hundred posts. Those views don't always reflect the majority of Live users however. Never the less, Ableton is always interested in what people think think and wish for, both here and on the Centercode suggestions.
that's completly unfair and un-true.

example:

99% of users were perfectly happy with simpler. 1% felt creative and came up with suggestions making it "un-simple" really...

But the point is : Ableton could've made everybody happy simply by coming up with a brand new instrument and a new name
instead of totally gettinf rid of a simple little instrument and disrupting a good chunk of people's workflow (how do you like
having to disable WARP mode every time you swap sample within the same preset now...)

The issue isn't the user, the issue is company management

Grill Pheiss
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Grill Pheiss » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:24 am

[erm] wrote:I think it's pretty misleading to assume Ableton doesn't listen to what people want given the recent updates
lmao!

yeah? ok how about scroll zoom then?

but nah... why give users an alternative to a 700 euros mouse? #push

irrelevance
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by irrelevance » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:36 am

Angstrom wrote:
"Why is it folks always look elsewhere for inspiration for what Live should be?"
Because it's handy to have a concrete example to reference a complex idea.
Suggestions are ways of proposing things which could be improved. The previous user was doubting that anything "big" could be added, and I suggested a "big" thing I'd like as a broad example. And that is why I said "it's a good example of "features nobody but me wants" . In specific reference to the title of this thread and the topic of the difficulty of satisfying a disparate group of users.

It's for sure that they will add their own ideas and "big" things in future. I think encapsulated clips would be a good thing to add in L10. That's my preference.

What I find objectionable is people who look at any user suggestions and say it's invalid, or "moaning" ... the retort which is equivalent to : "If you don't like it here then go back to your own country!!!11!!!" Look at what you have said "I don't have any of those issues that you feel need solving but if I did, buying the software that solved it would resolve those issues without moaning on Ableton forums "

You seem to be saying that if I should stop using Ableton and instead use Adobe After Effects Video Compositing software? If I want encapsulated clips in Live.

What sort of a response is that? You are aware that Live 10 will have additional features, right? Most of the features they added will be drawn from some inspiration or other.
Nah not meant that way at all. Discourse is good ranting solves nothing if you're not part of the latter I wasn't talking to you anyway. No worries.

[jur]
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by [jur] » Sun Aug 07, 2016 12:04 pm

Please take it easy.
Live is the best music software anyway!
Ableton Forum Moderator

Stromkraft
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Re: Why does Ableton keep adding new features that no one wants?

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:46 pm

Angstrom wrote:
"Why is it folks always look elsewhere for inspiration for what Live should be?"
Because it's handy to have a concrete example to reference a complex idea.
Suggestions are ways of proposing things which could be improved.
Nevertheless such "concrete suggestions" (strikingly often really being "ripped out ideas by someone that typically seldom understand how software works in general, and even less so when it comes to functional and graphical user interface design on 2 very different platforms, attempting to prescribe a solution to a problem space that is typically not fully understood when the suggestion is given").

Of course most developers, project managers, software architects and their like often can extract useful information from such suggestions anyway and these do indeed have value. If nothing else it signals a user isn't satisfied with the product.

The key problem with "look at how product C solves this problem" is that it may not apply completely to, or fit in well in, Product A and may indeed have dire side effects or make the product harder to use, thusly not necessarily making the suggested perceived improvement prescription the best solution for product A.

That's my main gripe for these kind of suggestions, the implication that it's a command process that drives software development. It really isn't, at least not when it's great software.

Even so it's important issues do surface and are discussed openly as here. No-one should be criticized just for raising an issue, but also suggestions can be debated.
Make some music!

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