pan individual notes

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vincent_2
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:53 pm

pan individual notes

Post by vincent_2 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:35 pm

hello Ableton,
is there any chance MPE made (or will soon make) possible the panning of individual MIDI note ?
(For those who would answer too fast : I'm aware of the automation, but I'm not talking about global panning here, think of your note release that would get panned badly).

chapelier fou
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Re: pan individual notes

Post by chapelier fou » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:07 pm

It's more complicated than that.
The instrument itself should be able to do that. And that's not the case for now.
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

antic604
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Re: pan individual notes

Post by antic604 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:18 pm

"Easiest" I could think of would be to put several instances of the same instrument in instrument rack, assign to each of them different placing in the stereo and simply choose / automate which is playing at given moment with a macro control.

That should help avoiding the unwanted effect of tail of the release being panned differently to where it was triggered from

EDIT: don't know what 'MPE' is, so maybe my answer is irrelevant; sorry if that's the case

chapelier fou
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Re: pan individual notes

Post by chapelier fou » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:12 pm

You could make a M4L device that will rotate or allocate random chains for each new incoming MIDI Note.
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

Warmonger
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Re: pan individual notes

Post by Warmonger » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:33 pm

I really want this option in Simpler / Sampler. Especially for hats and other rhytmic parts, but also on all kind of atmospheres and pads.
Plus, another step to proper granular synthesis ;)

vincent_2
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:53 pm

Re: pan individual notes

Post by vincent_2 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:00 am

@chapelier fou : yes, precisely: instruments should do that. That's why I was asking ableton ! ;)

Among other clumsy techniques to do that, I do the following (as a good compromise between precise panning and lightweight-ness) : you can have two tracks with the same synth panned left and right. Both tracks receive the same MIDI notes. Then you put a M4L patch before each synth that will modulate the velocity based on whatever MIDI ctrl automation you may like to use for panning. The left track velocities will be multiplied by [pan_value/127] and the right by [1 - (pan_value/127)]

The drawbacks being that *velocity modulation* is not exactly like *amplitude modulation* (given that velocity can also affect harmonics, pitch enveloppe and the like). But this does the job quite ok.

I don't see how much of a problem it would be to implement MPE style in native ableton synth (with per-channel control).
Actually, I don't quite get how MIDI channels are used in a live MIDI-synth chain... it seems to me it is just used before the track as a selector, but then the info is not usable anymore... Is there any documentation anywhere on that topic ?

vincent_2
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:53 pm

Re: pan individual notes

Post by vincent_2 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:06 am

antic604 wrote:"
EDIT: don't know what 'MPE' is, so maybe my answer is irrelevant; sorry if that's the case
@antic604 : MPE = "Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression", used by so-called "3D-notes" or "expressive" interfaces like Roli Seabord, Joué, LinnStrument, Soundplane, McMillen K-Board, etc.

It essentially uses a round-robin channel allocation for each new MIDI-note, allowing per-note modulation.

more details : http://expressiveness.org/2015/04/24/mi ... ession-mpe

antic604
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Re: pan individual notes

Post by antic604 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:09 am

vincent_2 wrote:Among other clumsy techniques to do that, I do the following (as a good compromise between precise panning and lightweight-ness) : you can have two tracks with the same synth panned left and right. Both tracks receive the same MIDI notes. Then you put a M4L patch before each synth that will modulate the velocity based on whatever MIDI ctrl automation you may like to use for panning. The left track velocities will be multiplied by [pan_value/127] and the right by [1 - (pan_value/127)]
If you want to modulate panning by velocity, you can easily do it the way I described above using velocity zones in the instrument rack (https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/instr ... city-zones)

vincent_2
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Re: pan individual notes

Post by vincent_2 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:17 am

antic604 wrote: If you want to modulate panning by velocity, you can easily do it the way I described above using velocity zones in the instrument rack (https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/instr ... city-zones)
No, I want to modulate panning (or whatever synth parameter) *per-note* with a MIDI-CC (or whatever automation).
The technique I descibed above is using velocity as a way of cross-fading between 2 synths panned left and right.
But the panning is not *depending on* velocity.
Not sure I managed to explain it clearly, but I am aware of velocity zones and this is not what I mean here.

antic604
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Re: pan individual notes

Post by antic604 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:36 am

vincent_2 wrote:
antic604 wrote: If you want to modulate panning by velocity, you can easily do it the way I described above using velocity zones in the instrument rack (https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/instr ... city-zones)
No, I want to modulate panning (or whatever synth parameter) *per-note* with a MIDI-CC (or whatever automation).
The technique I descibed above is using velocity as a way of cross-fading between 2 synths panned left and right.
But the panning is not *depending on* velocity.
Not sure I managed to explain it clearly, but I am aware of velocity zones and this is not what I mean here.
Ok, but as I said you can - instead of using velocity zones - use chain select zones and automate them per-note by hand or add M4L LFO device and automate them at random.
Because the instrument will be in a rack, each will be playing separately and overlapping notes will stay & continue to play in their original pan position.
Sure, I agree this should be possible to achieve withing the synths themselves, but this workaround - I think - provides what you're looking for :)

BTW, to make sure - I'm taking about using instrument rack with several instances of the same instrument just panned differently, not an effect rack that will adjust the panning of the track.

vincent_2
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:53 pm

Re: pan individual notes

Post by vincent_2 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:58 am

@antic604 : damnit you're right.
How could I not see that simple solution before ??
thanks for opening my mind to new chaining delights.
cheers

antic604
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:14 am
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Re: pan individual notes

Post by antic604 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:04 am

vincent_2 wrote:@antic604 : damnit you're right.
How could I not see that simple solution before ??
thanks for opening my mind to new chaining delights.
cheers
Glad I could help. Actually, I find that racks & routing answer 90% of questions here :D

Worst thing is that how whey work is not immediately obvious, unless someone shows you or you'll read through the manual. I was "lucky" few months ago that my son very gently sprinkled his ankle and we had to spend 5 hours at the hospital waiting to have it checked, so I read Live's manual on-line just out of boredom. It was - indeed - eye opening :)

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