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Re: MPE support.

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:21 pm
by diamondgeeza
especially considering I paid less for a full version of logic than live 10 update. Oh and it also supports sysex. A bit regretting the update as I might have to move back to a regular DAW with decent hardware support.

Maybe ableton don't want to support MPE as it will make push2 look a bit, erm, linear...

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:46 pm
by Stromkraft
diamondgeeza wrote:especially considering I paid less for a full version of logic than live 10 update.
I think that isn't very fair. Apple have enough cash to pay users for getting a Logic license. If you love this DAW, go for it.
diamondgeeza wrote: Maybe ableton don't want to support MPE as it will make push2 look a bit, erm, linear...
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean? If Ableton added MPE tomorrow this would make Push 2 look linear, that's what you're saying? Compared to?

I don't think Linnstrument and similar can replace Push 2 anyway. They are something different (and very cool).

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:29 pm
by Machinesworking
Stromkraft wrote:
diamondgeeza wrote:especially considering I paid less for a full version of logic than live 10 update.
I think that isn't very fair. Apple have enough cash to pay users for getting a Logic license. If you love this DAW, go for it.


The price of Logic has long been dismissed by claiming Apple use it as a loss leader. A couple things. I know a ton of people including myself who don't really use Logic as a main DAW that own a copy, it's status as the de facto DAW for OSX made it ridiculously common for people to own. Logic is no cheaper than the competition when you upgrade, it's $200, no discount for owning an earlier version. So in the long run unless a company sells upgrades at a faster rate (Cubase is the only one I can think of) then over time the initial $2-300 or so savings isn't that much. Plus we can look at Reaper now as an example of a DAW with a really cheap price for most of us at $60 for people making less than 20K off of music a year, and see there are other ways to do business than to gouge people for upgrades and initial purchases. Reaper is I think going to become the collaboration DAW Of choice since $60 beats the snot out of roughly $400 competitive upgrade costs to most DAWs or even Logic at $199. Basically if Logic is such a huge savings because hardware how are Cockos surviving and even flourishing from what I can tell? Plus I really doubt it's a loss leader, now are Ableton making more off of Live? for sure, but Apple in no way in my mind is losing money off Logic.

diamondgeeza wrote: Maybe ableton don't want to support MPE as it will make push2 look a bit, erm, linear...
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean? If Ableton added MPE tomorrow this would make Push 2 look linear, that's what you're saying? Compared to?

I don't think Linnstrument and similar can replace Push 2 anyway. They are something different (and very cool).
In terms of playing Push in the note grid mode, you've got poly afterouch which if Live got MPE would help a little, but pitch and Expression are not controllable separately for each channel via the Push 2 interface. Really the most you could have on Push 2 is poly aftertouch. So implementing MPE would show this glaring difference between a Linnstrument, Roli etc. and Push 2.
Yes, you would need a Launchpad and a Roli or Linnstrument to replace Push and give true MPE, but you can see where that could possibly affect Push 2 sales. Since with a Launchpad only a few things are missing from that combo and you get true MPE. That was diamondgeeza's point with 'linear'.

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:19 pm
by Angstrom
I was assuming that the change to the automation view in L10 was going to lead us towards MPE support in 10.2
but I'm not wondering how exactly it can happen. MPE envelopes are bound to the notes, and so in Live that would mean the envelopes in clips would be the ones which would need updating, not the arrangment envelopes. So now I expect 10.2 will include Dop3 Bre4kz Pack and a second vocoder.

I'm not really seeing how they can fit MPE into the interface of the clip. MIDI clips only show one envelope.

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:50 am
by Machinesworking
Angstrom wrote:I was assuming that the change to the automation view in L10 was going to lead us towards MPE support in 10.2
but I'm not wondering how exactly it can happen. MPE envelopes are bound to the notes, and so in Live that would mean the envelopes in clips would be the ones which would need updating, not the arrangment envelopes. So now I expect 10.2 will include Dop3 Bre4kz Pack and a second vocoder.

I'm not really seeing how they can fit MPE into the interface of the clip. MIDI clips only show one envelope.
I suppose we would have a lot of examples of how to do this with Logic, Cubase, Reaper, Bitwig, of course Mainstage doesn't count here.
Clips might be an issue, but a clip in many ways is just like a MIDI object in Logic or Reaper etc. I would bet Ableton simply allow for a new MPE Capable™ MIDI track and Instrument track.
Essentially bundling multiple tracks together under the hood and allowing "any" to mean all for that track type. This would be easier than rewriting the MIDI in Live which I think it's obvious they are not wanting to do considering the state of SysEx as a Max hack.

I just purchased Logic Pro X and Reaper very recently, so I never bought any MPE capable controllers, but I'm seriously thinking about the songmaker kit. My friend Al just bought a Roli Seaboard Rise 49, it's really freaking nice literally built like a tank, solid chunk of metal. I sold him years ago on Live, now I feel kind of bad, it's a total PITA to set it up to work in Live, we gave up and he messed with it in standalone with the Equator synth. The only good part is he has 10 so he can edit the single notes on the 16 odd tracks as one anyway...

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:32 am
by Stromkraft
Machinesworking wrote: … Plus I really doubt it's a loss leader, now are Ableton making more off of Live? for sure, but Apple in no way in my mind is losing money off Logic.
Well, I'm not at all certain of that of course, only Apple knows, but my point was that Apple has enough cash to build whatever they want, if they think it's a wise investment. If it takes 10 years to get the money back before building a profit that could be tolerated as long as it comes. Of course Apple competes with itself because enormous piles of cash isn't all it takes and they can't reasonably do everything at the same time.
Machinesworking wrote:
Stromkraft wrote:
diamondgeeza wrote: Maybe ableton don't want to support MPE as it will make push2 look a bit, erm, linear...
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean? If Ableton added MPE tomorrow this would make Push 2 look linear, that's what you're saying? Compared to?

I don't think Linnstrument and similar can replace Push 2 anyway. They are something different (and very cool).
In terms of playing Push in the note grid mode, you've got poly afterouch which if Live got MPE would help a little, but pitch and Expression are not controllable separately for each channel via the Push 2 interface. Really the most you could have on Push 2 is poly aftertouch. So implementing MPE would show this glaring difference between a Linnstrument, Roli etc. and Push 2.
Yes, you would need a Launchpad and a Roli or Linnstrument to replace Push and give true MPE, but you can see where that could possibly affect Push 2 sales. Since with a Launchpad only a few things are missing from that combo and you get true MPE. That was diamondgeeza's point with 'linear'.
Very well explained. Thank you!

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:55 am
by Angstrom
Machinesworking wrote:
Angstrom wrote: I'm not really seeing how they can fit MPE into the interface of the clip. MIDI clips only show one envelope.
I suppose we would have a lot of examples of how to do this with Logic, Cubase, Reaper, Bitwig, of course Mainstage doesn't count here.
The only other DAW I own is Studio1, which is also not MPE capable. But looking at the MPE DAWs nobody has a fantastic way of displaying and editing to this huge amount of data. Cubase opens a little floaty mindow when you click on each note and you draw a graph in there, it's not great. Reaper overlays all the data and colours each note then clicking coloured notes select similarly coloured overlaid data in a small graph space beneath, it's brutal!
IMO the most clear and logical is BitWig and perhaps that's why all the MPE people use it for demos, it seems to have incorporated it early and taken a fresh aproach to the problem.

Image

I'd normally be certain that Ableton had a solution up their sleeves... but it seems Ableton is much more about sampling dope beats off vinyl and then resequencing the sample with pads. Or perhaps about selling packs of samples of dope vinyl beats and also some sequences.

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:19 am
by Machinesworking
Stromkraft wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: … Plus I really doubt it's a loss leader, now are Ableton making more off of Live? for sure, but Apple in no way in my mind is losing money off Logic.
Well, I'm not at all certain of that of course, only Apple knows, but my point was that Apple has enough cash to build whatever they want, if they think it's a wise investment. If it takes 10 years to get the money back before building a profit that could be tolerated as long as it comes. Of course Apple competes with itself because enormous piles of cash isn't all it takes and they can't reasonably do everything at the same time.
All those points make sense, the real dark horse for any sort of justification for the constant upgrades Cubase does, Pro Tools and Bitwig and their subscription schemes or Ableton and it's long upgrades with good updates in between but brutally expensive upgrade pricing is Cockos and Reaper. Or to put it even more succinctly we see a small company in Cockos put out a very very competitive DAW with bare bones instrument plug ins for dirt cheap, and Apple putting out a complete package of instruments in their DAW for a reasonable price.

The question that comes to mind for me is why the others are still stuck in these money grabbing scenarios when Cockos and Apple are proving there are other ways? Ableton are not publicly traded, but Gherard bragged about 2 million independent Live users 5 years ago, that's not anything to worry about in terms of Ableton being short on cash. Not even adding in Push and upgrade sales... or now Max/MSP sales. Live has the sort of branding that Apple does, I give them that for sure, every Live meetup I've attended has had a worship sort of feel. My point is we shouldn't write off their shortcomings either, this is an OK upgrade, but if the updates don't bring on the flavor it's not that great, especially compared to what Cockos and Apple have done for their DAWs in the same period of time, or for that matter Cubase, although Steinberg are fleecers of a higher order. :roll:

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:23 am
by Machinesworking
@Stormcraft to Push 2's defense it's easily enough backwards engineered to where the same guy that did the Bitwig for Push did Reaper for Push 2.
It's brutal to get running, but once it's up it's pretty amazing! 8O

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIXAYhWVr2w

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:24 pm
by rhialto
I'll just add my voice to the chorus - MPE support would be great. It's a pain in the butt to set up and record my Rise 49. I thought multi-midi-clip editing would help. but it only supports 8 tracks, not 16. And limiting equator to 8 channels (and associated live tracks) is wonky. Wonky enough that given it didn't work for me after messing around with settings and such for 15 minutes, i gave up. Ableton - please provide MPE support - I love playing the Rise 49 and don't want to have to learn another DAW just to record it so I can import the results into Ableton. It's a workflow limiter.

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:52 pm
by soundsliketree
rhialto wrote:I'll just add my voice to the chorus - MPE support would be great. It's a pain in the butt to set up and record my Rise 49. I thought multi-midi-clip editing would help. but it only supports 8 tracks, not 16. And limiting equator to 8 channels (and associated live tracks) is wonky. Wonky enough that given it didn't work for me after messing around with settings and such for 15 minutes, i gave up. Ableton - please provide MPE support - I love playing the Rise 49 and don't want to have to learn another DAW just to record it so I can import the results into Ableton. It's a workflow limiter.
Have you noticed that the latency, smoothness and accuracy of the response is different when playing the same equator patch through Live vs. the Equator stand-alone? To me it felt like the extra hoops the data has to jump through in the multi-track Live workaround is effecting the nuances of the expression in a negative way in the Live scenario - regardless of voice count.

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:06 pm
by BaeJae
I bought Roli Seaboard Block before knowing that Ableton doensnt support MPE.
It's a total disaster.
I thought Ableton is one of the best daw in the world that listens to their customers.., but now it's hard to convince that.

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:32 pm
by hoffman2k
Anybody got their hands on the specs yet? It was going to be up a week after Namm, but all I find on the MIDI site is press releases and their vision for the next gen MIDI.

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:15 pm
by diamondgeeza
I can't believe my free copy of garageband supports MPE but my 2nd paid upgrade to Live doesn't. Come on guys, I am sure you will be adding MPE to push3 right?

Re: MPE support.

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:10 pm
by H20nly
i understand having this discussion...

but i doubt i'll ever fully understand these Polls where there's one answer, the one the creator of the thread most likely selected 2 seconds after the thread goes live, that is almost the only response.

seriously, "No I don't care" is the only other option. :?

what if i support the idea of MPE support but I am not "avoiding or ditching Live" over the current lack of it?

these loaded selection polls undermine themselves. how can logical people, like software devs, take a poll like that seriously? it seems to me that the poll feature is just a waste of time since it is not gathering helpful information... it just pigeon holes you into one answer or makes you apathetic if you choose otherwise. that's a fail as it pertains to making voices heard.

MPE is only important if you're ditching Live. :roll:



tldr; i didn't use the poll feature because it's fucking useless on this thread. i bet i'm not the only one.