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Are you avoiding or ditching Live due to lack of MPE support?
Yes, it's becoming really important. 83%  83%  [ 68 ]
No, I don't care. 17%  17%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 82
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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:04 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am
Posts: 7055
@machinesworking, you write some good stuff, but I don't understand your implications. I simply have a strong conviction on the case of PolyAT. While I feel for the people wanting proper MPE support, it's not important for me personally.

While I read your and Angstrom's speculative (and welcome) explanations on why the lack of support, do accept those reasons as quite possible for the situation then, I still don't find those as valid any longer. Of course, I do accept Ableton might still not feel it worth the effort even now from a cost/benefit perspective, but I also feel the market has started to change. Maybe slower than I'd hope, but I think advanced controllers will only grow in popularity. I also think this is on Ableton's horizon very much.

We simply disagree on the importance of PolyAT. To me it's just as if not implementing velocity or like making all synths only monophonic or something like that. It's part of MIDI since forever and when you implement a standard you implement all of it, not just some parts. It's probably the GUI editing development that has been holding back PolyAT in Live. On the data side I think there are few problems since 6 years at least, but I don't know for sure Ableton's reasons so I do see the need of informed speculations such as yours.

Please, don't use that tired moving to another DAW or even using another as well, because I won't. I'm all about finding the workarounds for my own work. I thank you for reminding us of the existing ones for PolyAt and MPE. I've been forced to find a lot of workarounds myself.

You really shouldn't assume I want to "win" a discussion. I simply don't give up when I feel strongly about if I'm not convinced. You made some good points. I'm sorry if I didn't acknowledge that more clearly.

I do find your assumptions about PolyAt capable controllers to be quite tired. I'm not working in the sales industry so I'm not going to quote any statistics. Other have done that. Go criticize them for being inaccurate.

There's a world out there of people doing advanced stuff though. For instance I meet a lot of drummers making use of PolyAT. Turns out their boxes have that. Not everyone works like you or I even when making "beats".

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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:34 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:04 am
Posts: 83
Location: london ,England
If no one has tried MPE.If they have an ipad.Download Animoog app and see what it's all about .It is quite amazing!


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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:57 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Posts: 15755
Location: The Wild West
Stromkraft wrote:
You really shouldn't assume I want to "win" a discussion.

i'm fairly certain that he/we quit assuming that several thousand posts ago.


Stromkraft wrote:
Please, don't use that tired moving to another DAW or even using another as well, because I won't

if you won't take your own advice, then why should all the people you suggest this to?


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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:41 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am
Posts: 7055
H20nly wrote:
if you won't take your own advice, then why should all the people you suggest this to?


I already explained that in the sentence you cut out. That you have a comprehension problem is your own problem. Go pick a fight with someone else. We're having a healthy debate. While we were disagreeing machinesworking took the opportunity to explain his position with well thought-out arguments, which I'm grateful for.

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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:16 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Posts: 11015
Location: Seattle
Stromkraft wrote:
I do find your assumptions about PolyAt capable controllers to be quite tired. I'm not working in the sales industry so I'm not going to quote any statistics. Other have done that. Go criticize them for being inaccurate.


If you ever wonder why people get into arguments on the internet with you, try reading this gem as if someone wrote it to you.

Seriously. You admit to having no idea what the actual market is for Poly AT and MPE devices, but you want Ableton to implement it STAT! :lol:

I'm almost willing to bet Live skips right by Poly AT and gets MPE in an update at some point, because Drum Racks show that you could create a sort of internal Rack of some sort that does this with the code that is there to begin with.

Plus, and this is huge, if you want true full spectrum MIDI in a DAW, Live has always been and probably always will be only basic. No NRPNs, MPE, SysEx, Poly AT, 128 possible automation and CC's etc. It's the most constrained MIDI DAW out there. When you post that Live having MIDI 14 years ago holds them accountable... Live has had MIDI for 14 years, and all those missing MIDI features are still missing. Most of the time when people do the whole "move to or use another DAW" thing I get it, it's just an Merka' Love it or Leave it! thing, but you'e literally acting entitled about a DAW that has shown ZERO interest in meeting your demands for 14 years. It's a little insane. You're literally sticking with a DAW that will never be what you want it to be.


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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:38 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:05 pm
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Let’s all chill a bit please. Ableton is well aware some users want MPE, Roger Linn was a featured speaker and demonstrating his Linnstrument at the first Loop. Not trying to imply it will or won’t happen, but sometimes these things take time to implement right. If they are deemed implementable at all.

In the meantime guessing what we will or won’t do is just that, guessing.

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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:32 am 

Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:58 am
Posts: 3
"Plus, and this is huge, if you want true full spectrum MIDI in a DAW, Live has always been and probably always will be only basic. No NRPNs, MPE, SysEx, Poly AT, 128 possible automation and CC's etc. It's the most constrained MIDI DAW out there."

This is very true and fair enough as a lot of these things are outliving their usefulness and there are other solutions for sysex, NRPN's are bit clunky to say the least. The tragedy with MPE is it is a new technology opening up new means of expression, not to mention ableton is already halfway there with the ability to view multiple midi track on the same roll - increase the maximum amount of tracks and that would probably satisfy a lot of people. I don't want to go out and learn a whole new DAW for MPE, that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater :P


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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:47 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Posts: 11015
Location: Seattle
diamondgeeza wrote:
"Plus, and this is huge, if you want true full spectrum MIDI in a DAW, Live has always been and probably always will be only basic. No NRPNs, MPE, SysEx, Poly AT, 128 possible automation and CC's etc. It's the most constrained MIDI DAW out there."

This is very true and fair enough as a lot of these things are outliving their usefulness and there are other solutions for sysex, NRPN's are bit clunky to say the least. The tragedy with MPE is it is a new technology opening up new means of expression, not to mention ableton is already halfway there with the ability to view multiple midi track on the same roll - increase the maximum amount of tracks and that would probably satisfy a lot of people. I don't want to go out and learn a whole new DAW for MPE, that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater :P

Look, I'm all for Live implementing MPE, I'm not against it at all. Thinking you can guess what a company will, or can do, that has systematically constrained MIDI for whatever reasons Ableton has though, I don't get it. SysEx is 100% still valid, there have been more hardware synths released in the last couple years that are SysEx capable than MPE capable controllers. It's an interesting thing with people that they will automatically disregard a tech or feature if they personally have no need for it. I have hardware synths that can use SysEx to my advantage, and a Seaboard Block. Limiting automation to 128 parameters is another example of How Ableton do this whole thing differently, that has nothing to do with some sort of future thinking feature limiting IMO.

My point is with all this in mind, getting upset at a software company for not following through with your preferred development path is a bit silly. Ableton carve their own path, that's a proven, easily backed up assertion. If you want MPE, you have nothing but hints that Ableton might implement it, if you want SysEx, NRPNs, or Poly AT etc. you should probably look elsewhere for those things.


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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:51 am 

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:09 am
Posts: 1
I just bought a LinnStrument. I like its expressive capability, and I plan to use it to explore microtonal music. I'd like to see MPE support added to Live 10 along with any other MIDI features that might be required for working with alternative scales. In addition to Live 10 Suite, I have Max 7, and plan to upgrade to Max 8 when it comes out. I imagine that the developers at both Ableton and Cycling '74 are focusing on Live + Max compatibility and integration right now.


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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:52 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:38 am
Posts: 39
- Edited by Moderator -

You are all welcome to express your views and frustrations here on the forums, but we insist you avoid name calling and treat each other with respect. If you can't follow our community guidelines posted at the top of each forum, you will be banned from the forums permanently.


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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:38 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Posts: 15755
Location: The Wild West
- Edited by Moderator -

You are all welcome to express your views and frustrations here on the forums, but we insist you avoid name calling and treat each other with respect. If you can't follow our community guidelines posted at the top of each forum, you will be banned from the forums permanently.


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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:21 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Posts: 15755
Location: The Wild West
probably for the best. i prefer the way i said this before, but with that gone i'll rephrase: your insults are unwarranted acYm

insulting a bunch of people having a conversation does nothing to contribute to feature development.


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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:30 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 286
Location: England
Hi

I don't use a ROLI or other MPE input device but,
I do often create instrument racks with instrument(s) per note, so can see the need for a MPE capable synth &/or lives current synths needing to add support, in my use case changing a preset & automation of chords would be far simpler.

Lee

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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:37 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:38 am
Posts: 39
I stand by what I said and in more than 15 years of reading various forums across every DAW and platform I have never seen anything more preposterous and counter-productive than the idea that it would be "normal" that Ableton's midi spec sucks ass and that users should "look for another daw" instead of expecting and/or requesting any kind of improvements from Live's midi implementation which sucks ass, despite the software's many other qualities.

I'm frankly shaken by some of what I've read in this thread and it has affected my view of Ableton's community.


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 Post subject: Re: MPE support.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:23 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Posts: 11015
Location: Seattle
acYm wrote:
I stand by what I said and in more than 15 years of reading various forums across every DAW and platform I have never seen anything more preposterous and counter-productive than the idea that it would be "normal" that Ableton's midi spec sucks ass and that users should "look for another daw" instead of expecting and/or requesting any kind of improvements from Live's midi implementation which sucks ass, despite the software's many other qualities.

I'm frankly shaken by some of what I've read in this thread and it has affected my view of Ableton's community.

I would assume if you've been reading various forums for 15 years you would know that the one constant irreproachable truth of any online community is that not everyone will share your views and think like you do.

I would also assume you know that angry people on forums bitching about a feature they want is the least likely way to get what you want from developers. There is a link in this thread for voting on MPE support on the beta list, this is a good way.

Currently I use Reaper for MPE, I have no qualms about suggesting other people do the same, I'm not that interested in spending my time setting up Racks in Live to get Live to do MPE. Currently Live does not support MPE and I don't see any reason to be upset about it, saying Live's MIDI implementation sucks ass is simply not true, it's limited feature wise (No MPE, SysEx, NRPNs, 128 parameter limit etc.), but the MIDI it does have is supremely routable, compared to any other DAW really. I am not a programmer, and specifically I'm not a programmer of a DAW. I have no idea how hard it might be to implement MPE in Live, and with that in mind I'm not going to make assumptions.

All that said, I 100% want MPE support in Live, I'm just not convinced it's not there because Live sucks ass, the programmers are lazy, we aren't screaming about it loud enough, Ableton is dumb, or any of the other assumptions that are made by people who bought a DAW that has never stated it currently supports MPE.

Some moderator or another here stated that MPE is an acknowledged feature people want in Live that Ableton are planning on. Like any other feature in the future, there is no date we can mark on our calendars as the date Live gets MPE. It could be next month, it could be two years from now, and I'm pretty certain that end user pressure for MPE support isn't going to change that. (See above about not being a programmer and not knowing what kind of roadblocks MPE support has. )


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