Please Ableton, don't remove any more existing functionality

Share your wishes for the future of Ableton Live
sweetjesus
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Please Ableton, don't remove any more existing functionality

Post by sweetjesus » Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:35 am

1) Playback head scrubbing
2) alt + click on piano roll notes
3) preset selection from the plugin interface

All these are things you have removed from Live. Many of us used these or wished that they were upgraded as opposed to simply thrown out and replaced.

I am now on my second upgrade cycle, and already I know that in the future, my reviews of upgrades are not going to be based on new features (which I'm sure you will keep on adding as you are very smart people) but they will be based on what features or little methods of operation have been removed.

Either please develop a new application or don't remove anything from the current one. If we wanted an application without the features Live 1,2,3,4 we would have gone elsewhere, but we want everything thats in L1-4 that's why we paid you our hard earned money.

jrathkopf
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Post by jrathkopf » Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:49 am

PLEASE BRING BACK PLAYHEAD CLIP SCRUBBING... It was one of my favorite instrumental aspectsd of Live. I cant believe it has been taken out...

DJRetard
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Post by DJRetard » Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:11 am

Its such a great shame they did this.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

DJRetard
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Re: Please Ableton, don't remove any more existing functiona

Post by DJRetard » Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:14 am

sweetjesus wrote:1)
3) preset selection from the plugin interface
.

Your the first person I have seen mention this. It did bother me but I never said anything in case I come across as a moaner. Ive already had my wrists slapped for complaing about the warping (which still doesnt work properly imho)

But yes, what was the thinking behind that.

I cant even find my own presets now ??

serotoninsteve
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Re: Please Ableton, don't remove any more existing functiona

Post by serotoninsteve » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:46 pm

DJRetard wrote:
sweetjesus wrote:1)
3) preset selection from the plugin interface
.

Your the first person I have seen mention this. It did bother me but I never said anything in case I come across as a moaner. Ive already had my wrists slapped for complaing about the warping (which still doesnt work properly imho)

But yes, what was the thinking behind that.

I cant even find my own presets now ??
Too late, we where faster: :lol:



http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=


But really it was far more useable like it was before, and a small display with the presets name inside the fx would be handy, just let the font become red if it is tweaked in some manner and does not represent the initial preset anymore.

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quandry
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Post by quandry » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:47 pm

Agreed wholeheartedly with all of the above. DJRetard, here's a discussion on the patch matter:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

my 2 cents from the thread:

If you play live at all, the clicking and up down arrows are not immediate enough, especially if you are trying to play a vsti with you hands and want to quickly switch patches without mousing around to the right track, right instrument, and to the preset bar, clicking twice and so forth--that is way too much hassle. It would be so awesome to have the ability to scroll through effect and instrument presets with a midi knob, or to use midi buttons to instantly select patches and presets. It would be so much fun to be able to instantly switch effect patches on resonator, chorus, etc. to do some serious sound mangling. I think this is one major shortcoming of effect implementation in Live--we're using software, not hardware guitar pedals--the ability to have presets and to instanly recall them is one of the HUGE adavantages of software effects, it would be great for live use of Live to be able to have midi assignments to jump to different instrument and effects patches/presets.

While I appreciate the new browser scene in 5, I feel like it is one of many serious changes that are REALLY hurting Live as a performance based program. The name is "Live", its origins are from performing electronic artists frustrated with the software that was availible, and coming up with a whole new way of using musical software, with the number 1 rule that it be solid and reliable for live performance usage. Up til version 3, everything was tailored to quickness and ease so that one can perform live without a bunch of clicking and menus and sub-menus. Some changes in 4 and certainly MANY in 5 make doing things more circuitous and requiring more time and steps. The preset issue in 5 being a major one. Don't most of us have the effect/instrument window up at the bottom of session view when tweaking effects or changing patches--sure. I know a lot of us live performers don't even have the browser showing to save room for tracks and sends on the screen, or if the browser is up, it is very narrow. The obvious and easy way to change presets is like version 3--you already have the effect showing at the bottom, you just click the patch name and choose a new one. Simple midi/key control of this would've been awesome, but now, like many other handy/quick "live" Live features, the presets are now more cumbersome and involve more steps, and still no midi control. I appreciate a lot of the new features and appealing to a broader DAW audience, but C'mon Ableton, please don't lose sight of your original intentions, which seem to be getting left behind for DAW and DJ features.

Ryan
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Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:13 pm

wow,

holy crap!

I didn't realise they had taken the preset browse away from the plugin block. That's bad!

I have only seen screenshots of the new browser but I cant imagine it will be that much better for me. I dont use the current one much as I spend too much time opening and closing folders to get where I want to go. I like the idea of the browser as an addition to preset browsing ... but it's hardly quick is it?

Live is going to have to change it's name to Studio!

we need BIG CONTROLS, we need performance controls.
That's what should be the direction of Live ...

EG: Personally, I want Live to have a user designable performance screen for each song, so for Song 1 - I could make a performance screen with big patch controls for synth1 and just 4 big control assignable sliders and 4 mutes visible. That would be useful - as everyone could then make 'Live' work as a performance tool suited to them.

That seems more in line with your previous direction to me.

supster
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Re: Please Ableton, don't remove any more existing functiona

Post by supster » Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:49 pm

sweetjesus wrote:1) Playback head scrubbing
2) alt + click on piano roll notes
3) preset selection from the plugin interface

All these are things you have removed from Live. Many of us used these or wished that they were upgraded as opposed to simply thrown out and replaced.
yes, im obviously pushing hard for 1) and i saw the threads about 2) and 3) and i totally agree.

the problem i think comes down to this: there is a philosophy at ableton:

"options lead to feature bloat and too much complexity. make features broad and flexible enough to cover most scenarios, people will adapt"

i've heard a couple of them say it - in so many words - on more than one occassion. in principle its a good guide, it forces them to be innovative so Live doesnt just carbon copy Cubase/Logic/PT

ummm ... however i think they take it a little bit too far in some cases. breaking existing IMPORTANT functionality - features that people use everyday in the studio and onstage .. for the sake of not adding another little checkbox or even just a documented keyboard shortcut ... this is *wrong*

I agree with sweetjesus: we're the customers and you're breaking our product with this philosophy. please take note guys!
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melocoton
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Re: Please Ableton, don't remove any more existing functiona

Post by melocoton » Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:14 pm

DJRetard wrote:Your the first person I have seen mention this. It did bother me but I never said anything in case I come across as a moaner.
I didn't notice it in 5b8 because there were no included presets (and mine weren't showing up) but when I downloaded the latest beta I was suddenly shocked by the really convoluted way the preset management works. Perhaps more people will notice this and speak up as they get deeper into the betas.

I think this is an instance where Ableton really doesn't need to be reinventing the wheel. There is already a very well established way to design an interface that would allow us to select and organize plugins within folders and subfolders and that's the typical Mac/Windows menu system. All they needed to do was include the ability to create and organize subfolders within the exising pulldown menu like every other program and OS on the planet.

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:28 pm

I think they are are trying to keep it simple .. but I think they are now coming up against the perenial problem of the functionality beginning to outgrow the initial app concept.
they are striving to keep to the original plan .. which is now looking a little in need of renovation to support all this functionality.

Yes, we need it simple when we are using the app for performance / DJing ... and we need it complex when we are setting up / DAWing. But there isn't really the need to keep slicing things off in a manic need to simplify.

There is an alternative way to keep the instant nature of Live without removing one thing if you add another.. By. expanding the existing paradigm of 'complex' and 'simple' pages.
session : simple
arrangement : complex

let us route stuff from the complex pages to the simple pages, that way the GUI stays clean but functionality can be enhanced.

EG: connect Arrangement and Session!
arrangement (complex)- grab a named group of patterns .. drag them to session
Session (simple) - now contains a 'metaclip' of the group dragged from arrangement .

see how that is still simple functionality but retains the power by letting users go deeper if they have time (and inclination)

I would like to add some MORE in-depth functionality such as modular routing or an expansion of the algorithmic potential of follow actions. Why not do this on a new tab of 'complex' ? , which would enhance the simplicity of session for performance and control.

I'm dreaming.

* keeps reading the C++ tutorials *

krikor
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Post by krikor » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:29 am

3) preset selection from the plugin interface
Totally agree with this point.
This is really anoying in live situation, i really don't understand why they change that

another point:
the fact that if you drop some MIDI instrument on some AUDIO track it turns to a midi track and oposite, this is really stupid, because in the rush of a set i often make a mistake about that: i drop the midi on the bad chanel which is audio, with live 4 it wasn't a problem but with live 5 arggghhhh

Please review this, it's not an improvement at all

actually this can cause problem only with midi to midi with this preset problem, cause i realized that once a channel's got a clip on it, its nature cannot be change by dropping another clip on it. Still it's a bit weird if you go in the browser to change a preset and unfortunately press one of those all ready to go clip with included instrument and effect...
Last edited by krikor on Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

krikor
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Post by krikor » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:56 am

oops i was about to rewrite the same thing...but I aslo really don't understand the reason of this new stretch engine complex, cause anything i put in it sounds now like shit??!!!!

Livewire
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Post by Livewire » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:22 am

i wonder what type of audio stretch engine they use in melodyne. its amazing.

sweetjesus
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Post by sweetjesus » Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:51 am

Livewire wrote:i wonder what type of audio stretch engine they use in melodyne. its amazing.
idea#432243: A new audio engine called Yoga... scientists gather algorithms from hot models doing yoga and apply them to audio.

The result is a spiritually enhanced sonic experience.

quandry
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Post by quandry » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:44 pm

well, seems all of us agree on the new patch/preset scenario in 5 sucking. Does anyone actually like it better than the old way?!? If so, why? Are we all in agreement that the presets/patches should come back into the effect boxes like they were up til now? At the very least, both ways should be possible, the new way is so circuitous and time-wasting--not good during a live performance.

Ryan
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