Please Ableton, don't remove any more existing functionality

Share your wishes for the future of Ableton Live
quandry
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Post by quandry » Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:24 pm

melocoton wrote: I don't understand why you keep talking about clutter. If you're opening up a menu to select a new preset, that's really all you can do at that moment. It's not like you can select a new preset while simultaneously firing off a new clip or something. Your mouse can only be in one place at a time. So while you're selecting a preset, sure the menu covers things up but that's OK because it's all you're looking at! And then when you click on the preset you want it goes away like magic!

Um, yeah. You mean like the old preset menu (popup) that you want back? That comes out of thin air and covers up part of the screen too does it not?
Well, I guess when I perform live, I like so see the levels of all of my tracks, especially my guitarist in my duo whose volume can vary a bit. I use three different midi controllers live, so for me the mouse is just one of MANY controls I'm constantly monkeying with. Rarely is one hand idle, so when I'm mousing over to select a new preset in an effect, I may be twiddling with send knobs on various tracks, volume sliders on others, or pans on other tracks, or messing with the crossfade buttons and crossfader. My live session set has 13 tracks, I don't even have the browser shown to conserve screen space, so all of these functions(sends, pans, volume sliders, crossfade buttons) on some tracks would be obscured by something like your screenshot. Yes, the old way we all want back is a "pop up" or whatever you want to call it, but it is minimal in width and height in order to preserve the ability to see most of the interface, rather than obscuring sends, pans, routing, and sliders on the all of the tracks on the right half of the screen. I still think my idea of being able to drag a preset folder from the new 5 browser into the preset name box (if they bring it back) on the effect would be a sweet way of intrgrating the new and old methods. Then I could have every effect and instrument in my set have a minimal tailor-made set of presets, such that the old-style "pop-up" would be limited to the presets in the folder I drag and drop from the browser. I.e. my snare track's chorus effect would have only a handful of presets I use for the snare, not all the presets ever for the chorus (as in versions 2-4), or the multiple pop-ups of your screenshot. Clearly we work in different ways, and have different opinions of how the interface should work. But again, I'm realistic about how ableton designs their software, and I guarantee your screenshot's way of working with presets will never be implemented.

Ryan
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melocoton
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Post by melocoton » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:37 am

quandry wrote: Yes, the old way we all want back is a "pop up" or whatever you want to call it, but it is minimal in width and height in order to preserve the ability to see most of the interface, rather than obscuring sends, pans, routing, and sliders on the all of the tracks on the right half of the screen.
You mean like this? This is what my preset menus look like now. It's ridiculous:

Image
quandry wrote: I still think my idea of being able to drag a preset folder from the new 5 browser into the preset name box (if they bring it back) on the effect would be a sweet way of intrgrating the new and old methods.
This seems needlessly complex and confusing to me. How does the interface identify which preset set is currently displayed in the menu? What happens if in the heat of a live set you decide you want to use a certain preset that's not currrently in the grouping you have displayed?
I'm realistic about how ableton designs their software, and I guarantee your screenshot's way of working with presets will never be implemented.
Why? I have more confidence in Ableton than that and I believe if users want it and ask for it, it will be implemented. If you don't like it then that's fine and I respect the fact that it's not a priority for you. But if Ableton really has some strange philosophical objection to certain proven and well established interface paradigmns then that's disturbing to me.

I understand that they've already shown resistance to useful improvements like separate dockable windows for example. But I hope that eventually they reevaluate the direction of the interface because as Live continues to grow, some of the shortcomings of the original interface concept begin to become painfully clear. I think this issue with the new preset management scheme is just a symptom of a larger issue that Ableton has straightjacketed themselves into with certain rigid ideas about the program's interface.

quandry
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Post by quandry » Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:10 am

[quote="melocoton"]
This seems needlessly complex and confusing to me. How does the interface identify which preset set is currently displayed in the menu? What happens if in the heat of a live set you decide you want to use a certain preset that's not currrently in the grouping you have displayed?
quote]

As for the screenshot of the old way, I agree its big with that many presets. We agree the new way lacks in that you can't see the presets with the effects and instruments. Given that the new way stays and we want the old way back in some form, my idea of integrating the two would allow both ways of working, and would allow one to streamline the pop up on the effect/instrument, thus avoiding your screenshot of the old way. When you have under a dozen presets on an effect, the pop up is only on top of the effect box, quite nice in terms of not obscuring. If you could selectively drop browser folders with a dozen or so presets into the preset box on the effects, you could have the old way of working with the added ability to limit the number of presets shown in the pop up, which must have been part of the impetus to get rid of the pop up all-together and go the all mighty browser.

As for the rest of your comments, we all use Live different ways. My most important use of it for me is live performance. The program is, afterall, called "Live" and was created specifically for live performance usage. For me, the session interface is allows a whole new way of creating music, it can be like an instrument, and I know others feel the same. Why drastically change that? imho the interface is sublime in the way it is concieved and executed, and in someways you're right, they are dedicated ("straightjacketed") to the layout they have, what program isn't??? Do we want live to look like PT, DP, or Logic? Can't rewiring some of these apps or FL Studio, bidule, max/msp, etc. to Live solve many a personal workflow/interface issue (dual monitors is also helpful). For whatever reason, like it or not, Ableton tries to keep the interface as uncluttered as possible. If the way they've done away with the presets (and susequent pop ups) in the effects, and integrated them into the browser in 5 isn't indicative of an aversion to clutter and pop-ups, then why did they do it? Granted, they went to far by taking something useful (and much quicker and immediate on stage) away, but to me the design philosophy is obvious.
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tencentcat
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Post by tencentcat » Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:48 am

The new preset system is one of the first things I noticed about 5, and was an instant major turnoff. Made it feel like a very disorienting program.

I thought I'd give Ableton a chance with the new system and tried it for a while. I kind of got used to it, but mainly it just junks up and over-complicates the browser. Especially since the implimentation of the arrow system over the fast old way of just clicking once on a folder to open or close it. Ends up taking a lot more time to do anything.

Please Ableton put the presets back in the logical place - with the device that they exist for!!!

milfbait
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Post by milfbait » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:11 am

tencentcat wrote: Please Ableton put the presets back in the logical place - with the device that they exist for!!!
+100!!!

maxxiantu
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Post by maxxiantu » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:30 pm

I agree that it makes it fairly tedious to audition new patches with effects in Live 5.
okay, Completely tedious.
Even in a "studio" type sequence such as Logic, you can't scroll thru patches the way you could in Live 4.
So, what's the deal?

PJarrett
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Post by PJarrett » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:43 pm

FWIW, I think melocoton is right on target. His mock-up screen shot is exatly the way it SHOULD be. It's bad in V4, and downright terrible in V5.

paradiddle
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Post by paradiddle » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:03 pm

Agreed also. I don't like the new presets handling. If you double-click on a preset, instead of loading it in the loaded effect, it creates a new one next to it. It's even worst. That would be my only complain for live 5, has the rest is great.

supster
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Post by supster » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:22 pm

paradiddle wrote:Agreed also. I don't like the new presets handling. If you double-click on a preset, instead of loading it in the loaded effect, it creates a new one next to it.
yup, its bad

i like the layered menu approach on the plugin, its really hard to improve on that ...
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gnomebottom
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I'd like to add to this thread...

Post by gnomebottom » Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:00 pm

My personal opinion is that if Live 5 had simply implemented PDC (plug-in delay compensation), Track Freeze, Mackie control support, the new effects and a few new skins - AND NOTHING ELSE. We'd all be very happy. But as usual, it's never enough to improve a program without having to re-bloody invent it and change all the rules etc!

Live 5 is better than live 4. If Ableton had implemented better signal routing, and Quicktime movie compatibility - it could have been the King of sequencers (or am I getting overexcited?)
Jack Morgan Rosete

PJarrett
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Post by PJarrett » Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:18 pm

paradiddle wrote:Agreed also. I don't like the new presets handling. If you double-click on a preset, instead of loading it in the loaded effect, it creates a new one next to it. It's even worst. That would be my only complain for live 5, has the rest is great.
You're right...I hadn't even noticed that.

This sucks!

Sorry, Abes. This whole preset issue has been implimented VERY poorly in V5.

atomic
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Post by atomic » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:37 pm

the melocoton screenshot represents a great idea IMOP. The only thing that freaks me out about that idea that with my other software Eg. Imposcar and the access powercore virus there are are clicks and pops that happen when i click on there menues that would make them a problem in any type of live use situation. hope that makes sence.
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leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:58 pm

paradiddle wrote:Agreed also. I don't like the new presets handling. If you double-click on a preset, instead of loading it in the loaded effect, it creates a new one next to it. It's even worst. That would be my only complain for live 5, has the rest is great.

Not true.

When the browser and a device are linked, double clicking loads a preset, not a new device. RTM, maybe?

I know it takes some getting used to, but it's much nicer to organize this way in my opinion.



-lm
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melocoton
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Post by melocoton » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:14 pm

(dual monitors is also helpful)
LOL! It's funny you should mention that as it's the perfect example of how Ableton has unnecessarily restricted themselves into a certain concept of the interface. I use dual monitors but one just sits empty and unused when I'm running Live. I would love to have the session view in one monitor and the arrange in another. Or the file browser and plugin interfaces on one monitor and nothing but mixer channels on another.

This kind of flexibility wouldn't change the current way you use Live at all. You would still be free to constrain everything to one window just like the current Live interface. Just like a sub-folder menu structure wouldn't change the way you work because you would be free to not create any subfolders if you don't need them.

PJarrett
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Post by PJarrett » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:18 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:
Not true.

When the browser and a device are linked, double clicking loads a preset, not a new device. RTM, maybe?

I know it takes some getting used to, but it's much nicer to organize this way in my opinion.



-lm
RTM? What manual? Beta doesn't come with a manual.

Besides, this is still hardly intuitive, and only goes to show the confusing this new system is. If there were popup menus on each device, this would NEVER be an issue.

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