Request: Max for Live Blocks

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TJotE
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Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by TJotE » Tue May 29, 2018 11:59 pm

Would be cool if there were more building blocks for Max for Live, sort of like Reaktor 6, for people like me who aren't into coding but still would like to use Max for Live to create things.

I know there are already some building block type of tools out there, including an Ableton Pack for download. Still, seems to me like this would be a good thing to focus on, to make Max for Live more accessible.

I hope to see this be emphasized in the future! :mrgreen:

pottering
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Re: Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by pottering » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:42 am

Already exists, it is called BEAP for audio and Vizzie for video. They are in a little round "B" button and a little "V" button in the left toolbar in the Max window.

And a lot of Max objects are much easier to use than the non-Blocks Reaktor stuff. For example, you just drag a bunch of WAV files into Max and it creates a playlist with play/stop and loop buttons, also showing the waveforms (you can just connect it with plugout~), 100 times easier than using samples in Reaktor.

And you can use full VSTs (or AU) in Max For Live (including Reaktor itself), can add your VST folder to the userpaths or just drag the DLL into the Max window. Better than Blocks (if you have a decent collection of VSTs).

TJotE
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Re: Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by TJotE » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:02 pm

Was not aware of that, thanks for letting me know. Still, the fact that this feature is kind of tucked away and hidden suggests to me that it needs more attention, if not more development.

Videos:

A few minutes with BEAP

Angstrom
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Re: Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by Angstrom » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:00 am

pottering wrote: And a lot of Max objects are much easier to use than the non-Blocks Reaktor stuff. For example, you just drag a bunch of WAV files into Max and it creates a playlist with play/stop and loop buttons, also showing the waveforms (you can just connect it with plugout~), 100 times easier than using samples in Reaktor.
...
I'm not sure I'd agree there. Unless you are comparing Reaktor Core, which I think was a fuckup of gigantic proportions. But the old Primary method is simplicity itself

Image

Image

Now, are you really saying that the visual or interactive paradigm of Max is more intuitive than that? I really don't think so.
The Reactor Primary construction paradigm (to me) reads and correlates directly with synthesis as I think of it.
Large well labelled objects using a synthesis metapor, with well labelled and named ports, and a left to right signal flow. Just like ... every synthesizer!

here's how we discover ... how to add an oscillator in Reactor.
  1. Right-click to insert a "built in module".
  2. Choose "oscillator" from the list and instantly see a list of all the oscillator types (Sawtooth, Saw Fm, ... continues for about 30 oscillators)
  3. click one to insert it lets choose "Saw FM"
and what we see as a result is a box labelled "Saw Fm" with inputs on the left labelled P, F, A and on the right "Out" . Synthesizers usually have interfaces describing a flow from left to right, so this makes sense. Lets guess what these inputs are "P" ...hmm, Portamen...nope, it's obviously "pitch" F must be something else ... and A we can guess is "amp". Out is self explanatory.

Now lets try Max.
can we right click to discover an insert? Nope.
So where's the objects at? it's behind the mystery meat icon that's where. Now I've no idea what that icon is meant to be ... so lets call it the "oven"

here's how we discover ... how to add an oscillator in max
  1. click the oven icon to open the object list
  2. we see a list starting with "2d.wave", then "absolutepath", then "adc" then .. what in the name of Odin is all this? Where are the oscillators
  3. we use the filter to filter the list by "oscillators"
  4. no results
of course, what we need to know is ... a lot of stuff. A hell of a lot of stuff.

And even when we learn it ... are we really saying that typing " Saw~ 100" and the resultant tiny mystery box .. is more intuitive than the Reaktor version?
No way man. No way.

Not unless "mtof" is intuitive.
it aint
Image

S4racen
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Re: Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by S4racen » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:40 am

Bookmarked for later... This is a very interesting idea!

Cheers
D

carrieres
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Re: Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by carrieres » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:38 am

BEAP is nice but limited by the number of block
Yamaha CS-30, Roland SH-1 and MKS70, Focusrite Scarlett 18i6, Yamaha FS1R, Oberheim Matrix 1000, Novation Remote 37SL, Alesis M1Active 520, Novation Launchpad PRO
Intel i7-7700HQ, Windows 10, Ableton Live 10 Suite
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pottering
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Re: Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by pottering » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:01 am

Angstrom wrote:
pottering wrote: And a lot of Max objects are much easier to use than the non-Blocks Reaktor stuff. For example, you just drag a bunch of WAV files into Max and it creates a playlist with play/stop and loop buttons, also showing the waveforms (you can just connect it with plugout~), 100 times easier than using samples in Reaktor.
...
I'm not sure I'd agree there. Unless you are comparing Reaktor Core, which I think was a fuckup of gigantic proportions. But the old Primary method is simplicity itself

Image

Image

Now, are you really saying that the visual or interactive paradigm of Max is more intuitive than that? I really don't think so.
The Reactor Primary construction paradigm (to me) reads and correlates directly with synthesis as I think of it.
Large well labelled objects using a synthesis metapor, with well labelled and named ports, and a left to right signal flow. Just like ... every synthesizer!

here's how we discover ... how to add an oscillator in Reactor.
  1. Right-click to insert a "built in module".
  2. Choose "oscillator" from the list and instantly see a list of all the oscillator types (Sawtooth, Saw Fm, ... continues for about 30 oscillators)
  3. click one to insert it lets choose "Saw FM"
and what we see as a result is a box labelled "Saw Fm" with inputs on the left labelled P, F, A and on the right "Out" . Synthesizers usually have interfaces describing a flow from left to right, so this makes sense. Lets guess what these inputs are "P" ...hmm, Portamen...nope, it's obviously "pitch" F must be something else ... and A we can guess is "amp". Out is self explanatory.

Now lets try Max.
can we right click to discover an insert? Nope.
So where's the objects at? it's behind the mystery meat icon that's where. Now I've no idea what that icon is meant to be ... so lets call it the "oven"

here's how we discover ... how to add an oscillator in max
  1. click the oven icon to open the object list
  2. we see a list starting with "2d.wave", then "absolutepath", then "adc" then .. what in the name of Odin is all this? Where are the oscillators
  3. we use the filter to filter the list by "oscillators"
  4. no results
of course, what we need to know is ... a lot of stuff. A hell of a lot of stuff.

And even when we learn it ... are we really saying that typing " Saw~ 100" and the resultant tiny mystery box .. is more intuitive than the Reaktor version?
No way man. No way.

Not unless "mtof" is intuitive.
it aint
Image
Max is much simpler than that, you can insert an empty object by simply double-clicking (or shortcut "N", or dragging from the top bar) to create a new object, and then typing the name of the object you want.
Since it has a pretty good smart search and auto-complete, typing "osc" will show several options (including "saw~") you can browse scrolling, with a short description of what they do. Of course, once you know the Max MSP names for stuff (cycle, saw, rect and tri, for sine,saw,square and triangle waves) you can just type those directly.

And after you add it you can right click (or alt+click, or ctrl+shift+H) to get the "Help" for the object, which looks like a JPEG illustration, but it is actually a working patch that can be manipulated with a mouse, and copy-pasted into your own patch. The Help will have links for related objects.

The Help example for "saw~" has a "mtof" ("MIDI to frequency", not a crazy name, and yes, there is a "ftom" object) right there, and then you can open the Help for "mtof" itself.

The pic you chose for Max looks complicated because it has 6 unnecessary objects (for educative reasons, I guess), the 4 objects between "notein" and "mtof" and the 1 between "mtof" and "saw~ 100" are only for showing the values for learning/debugging, and the "live.gain" is not necessary either. In truth you only need "notein", "mtof" and "saw~".

Takes a minute to build (in the vid, "cycle~", which is a sine, is used instead of "saw~"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2uUbKa ... B005E84E10

You can do those Reaktor pics in Max with pretty much the same number of objects and connections (well, at least for the OSCs, don't know what's inside the "Mixer", "Filter", etc.), the logic is similar , except the envelopes in Max would connect to the Mixer, not the OSCs.

I own both M4L and Reaktor, and Max was 100 times easier for me. It has some gotchas and needs some learning, but so does Reaktor (neither will magically teach you DSP).

In Max you can resize stuff (and align, like Adobe Illustrator) and also zoom-in/out the whole thing. It also has better fake-cable management (for example, can select multiple cables and move them at the same time into another object) and that will be even better in Max 8 (https://cycling74.com/products/new-max-version-8/). In that pic, where it is written "saw~ 100", if I want to change it to "rect~" I can simply type enter and rename it "rect~", it will change that oscillator from a saw to a square wave in place, without having to reconnect or move anything at all. One advantage of Max "visual programming" system.

And Reaktor seems mostly mouse-based, while in Max there are many shortcuts, in addition to the virtual cable system.

Working with samples is much easier too, you can simply drag samples into Max's window and start using them. Building a audio or video player in M4L is super easy, you need only 3 objects, "playbar", "jit.movie~" and "jit.pwindow", plus a "read" Message for the "jit.movie~" object.

TJotE
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Re: Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by TJotE » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:08 pm

Maybe I'm missing something here (probably am), but why are BEAP objects bigger than the vertical limit? Kind of renders them useless.

Image

TJotE
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Re: Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by TJotE » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:10 pm

TJotE wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here (probably am), but why are BEAP objects bigger than the vertical limit? Kind of renders them useless.

Image
It appears I'm not missing something. This video shows a M4L device being created with BEAP, and it not fitting when used in Live:

https://youtu.be/Y8NNs4re3LU

Are you kidding me? :?

Was BEAP just not made for Live or something? That's the only thing I can think of that would explain it. No way BEAP should be sold as something for Live if it's not even optimized to work right in Live. :roll:

carrieres
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Re: Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by carrieres » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:47 pm

https://cycling74.com/tutorials/a-few-m ... al-series/
BEAP was created with a pedagogic goal not to be used with or inside ableton
Yamaha CS-30, Roland SH-1 and MKS70, Focusrite Scarlett 18i6, Yamaha FS1R, Oberheim Matrix 1000, Novation Remote 37SL, Alesis M1Active 520, Novation Launchpad PRO
Intel i7-7700HQ, Windows 10, Ableton Live 10 Suite
http://soundcloud.com/ccarrieres

TJotE
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Re: Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by TJotE » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:26 pm

carrieres wrote:https://cycling74.com/tutorials/a-few-m ... al-series/
BEAP was created with a pedagogic goal not to be used with or inside ableton
Then my original request comes full cycle: A collection of different pre-built pieces would be great to have for people who aren't into coding.

S4racen
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Re: Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by S4racen » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:11 am

Solution on it's way, but it won't be rushed....

Cheers
D

antic604
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Re: Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by antic604 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:35 pm

TJotE wrote:Would be cool if there were more building blocks for Max for Live, sort of like Reaktor 6, for people like me who aren't into coding but still would like to use Max for Live to create things.

I know there are already some building block type of tools out there, including an Ableton Pack for download. Still, seems to me like this would be a good thing to focus on, to make Max for Live more accessible.

I hope to see this be emphasized in the future! :mrgreen:
Not really the same, but have you tried Oscillot?

https://youtu.be/FYgKOfOSGNs

https://www.ableton.com/en/packs/oscillot/

[jur]
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Re: Request: Max for Live Blocks

Post by [jur] » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:18 pm

TJotE wrote:
TJotE wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here (probably am), but why are BEAP objects bigger than the vertical limit? Kind of renders them useless.

Image
It appears I'm not missing something. This video shows a M4L device being created with BEAP, and it not fitting when used in Live:

https://youtu.be/Y8NNs4re3LU

Are you kidding me? :?

Was BEAP just not made for Live or something? That's the only thing I can think of that would explain it. No way BEAP should be sold as something for Live if it's not even optimized to work right in Live. :roll:
I think they fit without the top and bottom connections borders actually.
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