Especially in times of Corona I would love to make music together with others over the Internet.
I think that Link is a good idea of making music together within a network.
Why not extending this idea and allow to let musicians play "live" over the Internet in sync on a certain project?
Therefore everyone should see the same project and be able to work together in realtime on the same project and be able to actually "hear" what others are playing live or what clips get played live.
Everyone should hear the same and be able to work on the same...
Could this be realized in realtime over the Internet?
Making music together over the internet
Re: Making music together over the internet
Maybe samples would not have to be transferred to any computer participating in the same Live project. But rather the overall output and the graphical feedback for each channel could be transferred in realtime over the Internet to every computer participating in the same Live project.
So the sample(s) could remain on the computer where they lie (on the hard drive of the computer that has inserted them) and only the Live audio output could be streamed to any other device participating. Maybe, if there's enough bandwith available, all the clips and samples could be transferred to all other machines too that are participating so that only instruments that become played live would also have to be transered in realtime to other users if not enough bandwith would be available.
I would like that every computer hears what actually is available in the project, what becomes played live and that every participant can change the project or add new stuff or edit anything... so projects would really become collaborative and everyone could edit everything and would actually get all samples and data of the project on its own computer once there's enough bandwith to transfer all clips and stuff. Things that are played live would become transfered immediately by the help of an audio stream that reaches every participating computer...
So the sample(s) could remain on the computer where they lie (on the hard drive of the computer that has inserted them) and only the Live audio output could be streamed to any other device participating. Maybe, if there's enough bandwith available, all the clips and samples could be transferred to all other machines too that are participating so that only instruments that become played live would also have to be transered in realtime to other users if not enough bandwith would be available.
I would like that every computer hears what actually is available in the project, what becomes played live and that every participant can change the project or add new stuff or edit anything... so projects would really become collaborative and everyone could edit everything and would actually get all samples and data of the project on its own computer once there's enough bandwith to transfer all clips and stuff. Things that are played live would become transfered immediately by the help of an audio stream that reaches every participating computer...
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KleinAberFein
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:25 pm
Re: Making music together over the internet
You lost me in some points but at moments you really had me there totally feeling it.
I'm not sure about all what you say, which is normal, you're just giving an idea, not designing the whole project.
But it's a nice idea and I see potential in it.
What's this link you're talking about?
I'm not sure about all what you say, which is normal, you're just giving an idea, not designing the whole project.
But it's a nice idea and I see potential in it.
What's this link you're talking about?
Re: Making music together over the internet
Ableton Link, a technology designed by Ableton to make music together over a network. See the official Ableton Live homepage for further details...
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illinformed
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:01 pm
- Location: Broadstairs, Kent
- Contact:
Re: Making music together over the internet
Hi Udo
Until social distancing came into effect, I regularly enjoyed using Ableton Link with a friend. For the last 2 weeks, we have been on a quest to find the Holy Grail of realtime internet jamming with Ableton, and as far as we can see (someone please prove me wrong), it's not that great at the moment. I started writing a detailed reply but as it was turning into an almost day by day diary of our experience, and as it's getting late here, I have given links to what we have checked out. If anyone wants more info please ask on our experience please ask.
Matt Bray's 2017 Masters thesis Telemidi - https://www.midi.org/articles-old/telem ... -real-time. This looked like it had latency issues and seemed way to complicated so we started looking at the 'sharing audio' route which were
Ninjam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjam#eJAMMING A clever bit of kit, the programmers knew that anything transmitted over the internet will have latency so you're listening to 4 bars ago. Download the Jamtaba plugin https://jamtaba-music-web-site.appspot.com and snoop in to what people are up to. The audio quality is pretty poop and you have to set up a sever yourself.
The next thing we found was https://audiomovers.com Easy to setup, one plugin transmits, another recieves. The latency was not good enough for techno jams in realtime so we decided to take the Ninjam routes to delay by a few bars however syncing is a pain to set up. Also it's a subscription service but has a weeks free trial.
I think there are a few paid for audio transmitting service out there but I would be surprised if they were good enough for our realtime Ableton jams. If anyone knows of one, please let me know.
AUNetsend - AUNetreceive plugins. These are Apple Audio Units but I believe VST versions are available for PC users. The bonus is they're free. Port forwarding had to be setup on our routers and the receive plugin couldn't be found in Ableton so we had to use AU Lab. Again, this was very hard to sync and fairly much unusable with WIFI so you have to connect directly to your router.
The more we read, the more it seemed we shouldn't be using WIFI for transmitting audio, most tutorials advised to connect to the router directly. Having said that, Audiomovers seemed pretty good over WIFI so it may be worth paying for some.
https://www.soundjack.eu This looks promising. Haven't tried yet as but according to their videos, will be almost latency free over 5G (don't tell Eamonn Holmes). You need to login through a browser to get functionality but, so far, it's free.
What we need is a cross between Ninjam and Ableton Link, I'd pay someone to write a M4L script to do this. Type in the sever or P2P address, set delay in bars and Bingo!
Until social distancing came into effect, I regularly enjoyed using Ableton Link with a friend. For the last 2 weeks, we have been on a quest to find the Holy Grail of realtime internet jamming with Ableton, and as far as we can see (someone please prove me wrong), it's not that great at the moment. I started writing a detailed reply but as it was turning into an almost day by day diary of our experience, and as it's getting late here, I have given links to what we have checked out. If anyone wants more info please ask on our experience please ask.
Matt Bray's 2017 Masters thesis Telemidi - https://www.midi.org/articles-old/telem ... -real-time. This looked like it had latency issues and seemed way to complicated so we started looking at the 'sharing audio' route which were
Ninjam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjam#eJAMMING A clever bit of kit, the programmers knew that anything transmitted over the internet will have latency so you're listening to 4 bars ago. Download the Jamtaba plugin https://jamtaba-music-web-site.appspot.com and snoop in to what people are up to. The audio quality is pretty poop and you have to set up a sever yourself.
The next thing we found was https://audiomovers.com Easy to setup, one plugin transmits, another recieves. The latency was not good enough for techno jams in realtime so we decided to take the Ninjam routes to delay by a few bars however syncing is a pain to set up. Also it's a subscription service but has a weeks free trial.
I think there are a few paid for audio transmitting service out there but I would be surprised if they were good enough for our realtime Ableton jams. If anyone knows of one, please let me know.
AUNetsend - AUNetreceive plugins. These are Apple Audio Units but I believe VST versions are available for PC users. The bonus is they're free. Port forwarding had to be setup on our routers and the receive plugin couldn't be found in Ableton so we had to use AU Lab. Again, this was very hard to sync and fairly much unusable with WIFI so you have to connect directly to your router.
The more we read, the more it seemed we shouldn't be using WIFI for transmitting audio, most tutorials advised to connect to the router directly. Having said that, Audiomovers seemed pretty good over WIFI so it may be worth paying for some.
https://www.soundjack.eu This looks promising. Haven't tried yet as but according to their videos, will be almost latency free over 5G (don't tell Eamonn Holmes). You need to login through a browser to get functionality but, so far, it's free.
What we need is a cross between Ninjam and Ableton Link, I'd pay someone to write a M4L script to do this. Type in the sever or P2P address, set delay in bars and Bingo!
Re: Making music together over the internet
There's also JamKazam.com
I've heard too that WiFi isn't good to use for it and that the ISP should give you a public IP address (not ds-lite as it would be with my Unitymedia provider)
However on JamKazam.com you find videos where musicians were able to jam in realtime over the internet.
I've heard too that WiFi isn't good to use for it and that the ISP should give you a public IP address (not ds-lite as it would be with my Unitymedia provider)
However on JamKazam.com you find videos where musicians were able to jam in realtime over the internet.
Re: Making music together over the internet
Regarding Jamtaba: you can use the audio unit plugin in ableton live, in the plugin choose "sync", then you don't need a Ableton Link in Jamtaba / Ninjam. Server setup is easy, you just need to open the port on your router.
If you would just use the standalone Jamtaba client, then it would be nice if it would support Link, but that's why there is a plugin, probably...
For me the plugin works quite ok, unfortunately I experience some crashes from time to time
I've tested JamKazam also, that was ususally not very stable, I think their servers are not able to handle all the people that want to use it nowadays.
Interested to hear if others have found tools that work well!
If you would just use the standalone Jamtaba client, then it would be nice if it would support Link, but that's why there is a plugin, probably...
For me the plugin works quite ok, unfortunately I experience some crashes from time to time
I've tested JamKazam also, that was ususally not very stable, I think their servers are not able to handle all the people that want to use it nowadays.
Interested to hear if others have found tools that work well!
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illinformed
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- Location: Broadstairs, Kent
- Contact:
Re: Making music together over the internet
Many thanks tchuhak.
To be honest, I skimmed Jamtaba somewhat. I also think I was eavesdropping on some rooms that probably didn’t do the plugin any justice. I had no idea how well it integrated with Ableton.
We opened up the ports, connected, synced and had a pretty productive jam. And the audio quality was nowhere near as bad as I thought. Yes it is prone to the odd crash but as soon as it’s up and running, it was stable for over an hour.
It’s fun, and I urge people to use it.
To be honest, I skimmed Jamtaba somewhat. I also think I was eavesdropping on some rooms that probably didn’t do the plugin any justice. I had no idea how well it integrated with Ableton.
We opened up the ports, connected, synced and had a pretty productive jam. And the audio quality was nowhere near as bad as I thought. Yes it is prone to the odd crash but as soon as it’s up and running, it was stable for over an hour.
It’s fun, and I urge people to use it.
Re: Making music together over the internet
It's not really working well for me. Can anyone explain me how I have to set it up in order I can connect well to the servers shown in the plugin? It eventually worked but usually didn't let me in the server rooms to play with others.
Also I did not figure out how to actually jam with the others and whether they could hear me. Thanks for help!
Also I did not figure out how to actually jam with the others and whether they could hear me. Thanks for help!
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illinformed
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:01 pm
- Location: Broadstairs, Kent
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Re: Making music together over the internet
Hi Udo
Did you get any further?
I wanted to have a techno jam with a friend so I haven't tried any of the rooms on there as we set up our own private server.
We put the plugin on a return track and set all the midi and audio tracks IO settings to sends only. I then opened the plugin, clicked the 'Hosted a private server in your machine' option in the Ninjam dropdown and then clicked start. My friend then clicked the 'Connect with a private server' in the Ninjam dropdown menu and put my IP address in. We then both clicked transmit, hit the sync with Ableton button and I think that was it. Whoever is hosting the room has to enable UPnP on their router.
Did you get any further?
I wanted to have a techno jam with a friend so I haven't tried any of the rooms on there as we set up our own private server.
We put the plugin on a return track and set all the midi and audio tracks IO settings to sends only. I then opened the plugin, clicked the 'Hosted a private server in your machine' option in the Ninjam dropdown and then clicked start. My friend then clicked the 'Connect with a private server' in the Ninjam dropdown menu and put my IP address in. We then both clicked transmit, hit the sync with Ableton button and I think that was it. Whoever is hosting the room has to enable UPnP on their router.
Re: Making music together over the internet
I played around with my Live config and was happy to find a screenshot somewhere else as a reference, so showing my config here, hope it helps - suggestions for improvment welcome 
https://prnt.sc/s5h1xp
https://prnt.sc/s5h1xp
Last edited by tchuhak on Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Making music together over the internet
Hmm, I did not set up any server yet. Will have to find someone to jam first and figure out how that port forwarding works with my router... but thanks for the advice... was hoping it would work with public servers, the plugin (weird that I can connect in the standalone version to these public servers but not in the plugin version)
Re: Making music together over the internet
re musicians working live: check out jacktrip which apparently works, at least for those within 800km of each other: video overview (skip to 1/3rd in)
http://tiny.cc/crvxsz
link to jacktrip:
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/jac ... index.html
(free / open source)
http://tiny.cc/crvxsz
link to jacktrip:
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/jac ... index.html
(free / open source)
satellite system: mbp 2016 2.7, live 10; RME babypro, Roland A-300 pro, Shure 1540's, Shure SM7B, Roland Cube, Refx N2, Nerve....
Re: Making music together over the internet
There is this M4L project:
https://www.sharemidiandparty.com/
The interesting thing it is that it takes advantage of Live's system, it sends MIDI Clips instead of trying to send real-time audio or MIDI, seems more robust.
https://www.sharemidiandparty.com/
The interesting thing it is that it takes advantage of Live's system, it sends MIDI Clips instead of trying to send real-time audio or MIDI, seems more robust.
♥♥♥
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illinformed
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:01 pm
- Location: Broadstairs, Kent
- Contact:
Re: Making music together over the internet
Thanks pottering. That looks like a really interesting M4L project. Would be fun if you are using different banks of sound. It won't work for our jams but it could be an amazing creative tool.
I had a chat with a friend today and we wondered if we could use Live 11's new tempo following feature along with Apple's AUNetsend & AUNetreceive plugins. When we get time we will have a play and report back.