Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Share what you’d like to see added to Ableton Live.
baseinstinct
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:45 am

Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by baseinstinct » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:05 am

Not sure if that links with what you mention but there is an age old sync problem with manifests itself when using looper, for a simplest replication, but this is not a looper problem.

get a 1 bar loop with a clear hit on 1 and add some non-delay latency causing plugin. As you play back, this does see to get compensated.

Then add looper and record it. as it plays back from looper, it is still fine.

Now, drag the sample to an audio track and check its waveform. Latency is apparent, and you can hear it too.

b.r
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:28 pm

Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by b.r » Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:45 pm

hey it’s not only a specific plugin, but any source of signal processing. so it’s not only resampling or committing heavy stuff, but every time any time based effect is needed.

in that way you can’t use your creativity without an extra hassle. i discovered of course with lfo tool and kickstart, but same with tremolator, not hitting the right timing. same with movement or anything, so you can’t stack effects without committing each time.

but also same thing apply while trying to record midi and/or using external synths, either the midi data or the sound it’s out of sync, a complete mess...

some time ago i contacted tech support and this was the answer:

“This is a known issue that seems to be unavoidable. To fix it, make sure that the time-based effect is the very first one in the device chain.”

so it’s basically a design choice that favors live performance over producing.

will be great to have an option to enable/disable this performance-sync feature on version 11.

amadeux
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Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:46 pm

Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by amadeux » Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:59 pm

This is mad confusing and kinda irritating, but to be clear: the workaround is to do all your sidechain triggering with MIDI. I tried it and it is delay compensated correctly this way.

Interestingly, this rules out the use of certain plugins that don't have this functionality, like Nicky Romero Kickstart. Another artifact of Ableton's origins as live performance software, not (really) a DAW.

baseinstinct
Posts: 924
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Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by baseinstinct » Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:10 am

Triggering sidechain with midi? can you explain?


Side note. The same lag of recorded loops was observable in Traktor 2, even with ASIO set to 256, btw. Having configured apc40 to record 1 bar loops, you would get this loop playing right away with the balance between the main output and loop linked to a knob. Turning the knob would result in strong flanger effect if no transient, otherwise a gallop of kicks and stuff. Recorded audio was heavily delayed and as I tried watching youtube channels for t2 loop functionality tutorials, trainers were using all sorts of poker tricks to cover that up. The most common was to use non-percussive material and to set the balance to either 0 or 100%.

The Rabbits
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Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by The Rabbits » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:44 pm

How do we use a MIDI track for all our sidechain applications?

It's not always an on and off thing. Often you want a more subtle effect that depends on the level of the sidechain, or a filtered copy to focus on particular frequencies. Like using the filter in the sidechain in abletons devices.

alexang
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Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:30 am

Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by alexang » Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:20 am

Does anyone know if this has FINALLY been fixed in Ableton 11?!

I've reported this bug every 6 months for the past 6-7 years.

baseinstinct
Posts: 924
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Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by baseinstinct » Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:04 pm

That's impressive, really :)
This means everyone knows. I wonder how come, musicians themselves, ableton team don't just get this done if only for themselves. I would do it on day two.

Could it be that there is some technical impossibility? You can't check that against bitwig because it does not have a looper. But traktor 3 still has the same problem.

tomasmark79
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Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by tomasmark79 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:47 pm

CPU AMD 9 3900X / CHIPSET AMD X570 / 32GB RAM 3200Mhz / GPU Nitro+ SE RX6900XT16GB / SSD 3TB, HDD 4TB / WIN10 20H2
https://music.debianium.com

tcpMoniker
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Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by tcpMoniker » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:49 pm

That's about MIDI sync, not internal audio. If you use Shaper, a Live tool built in M4L, integrated into the software by Ableton and you bounce it out, you get this beauty:
https://imgur.com/a/gkmUUkH

So I wonder what complex crosstrack modulation in sound design would be like. Still happens in Live 11. So does a sample playing in sync inside the Looper but if you drag it out, there's no compensation, it's out of sync. Now admittedly, that last one is more of a workflow annoyance of having to correct the samples. The modulation timing issues, though? Bit more annoying than that.

This is all still a problem, so if people could stop posting "MIDI Latency" rubbish, that's not what this is about. I got into the Beta for this, so I can decide if I'm going to go to Bitwig, where I've tested the same things (minus the Looper) and none of these issues are present. People keep talking about how hard this is and how it's always a compromise, etc, etc. It's possible. I've seen it working properly in front of me, just not on Live.

jbone1313
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Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by jbone1313 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:15 pm

Deleted

jbone1313
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Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by jbone1313 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:26 pm

I think I have done an about-face on this matter. At first, I was frustrated that Ableton would not delay compensate plugins which sync to the transport if they are placed after latency-inducing devices, specifically Beat Repeat.

Now, having read what pottering said and having done a lot of testing, I actually like the way Ableton currently works.

Consider Beat Repeat.

Beat Repeat is one of the ones that has this "issue." I have learned to manage keeping my Beat Repeats before latency inducing devices, so I do not have any issues (as an aside, this did require some custom remote scripting to make my specific case work).

BUT, I think there is an advantage to how Beat Repeat works, and while I am not certain, I fear that advantage would be lost if Beat Repeat were to be updated as some in this thread (and I used to) want.

Specifically, what I see happening with Beat Repeat is the underlying audio buffer is in sync with the audio in Live at all times, despite the project's latency. That means when Beat Repeat is setup before latency inducing devices, it plays very nicely with the Reduced Latency When Monitoring setting. That is, I can have some nasty latency-inducing devices in my project, but using Reduced Latency When Monitoring and triggering my Beat Repeats, everything is solidly in time. Again, while I am not certain, I fear that updating Beat Repeat to be delay compensated when it is placed after latency-inducing devices would mess up the way it currently works, which as I think I explained above, is advantageous.

I am speculating here, but I suspect this is one of the reasons (in addition to what pottering said earlier) why Ableton does not update Beat Repeat to delay compensate when it is placed after latency-inducing devices.

I think the current behavior is good, and it demonstrates a sophisticated handling of latency across Live. I have also noticed that in other areas of Live. The latency handling is very sophisticated and covers a lot of use cases very well. As an example, consider Reduced Latency When Monitoring. That is a brilliant way to give users the ability to choose whether to record what is heard vs what is played. That is something Ableton added like ten years ago after a lot of us asked for it, and it is not something I recall ever seeing in other DAWs.
Last edited by jbone1313 on Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

baseinstinct
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Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by baseinstinct » Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:57 am

Creative use is special cases (think of stuck midi notes - also useful big time sometimes) . There are often some advantages of errors but ableton is a general purpose device.

Once the issue is fixed, some brilliant coder could recreate the current flaw in a dedicated plugin some 1 percent of musicians would be interested in using.

jbone1313
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:44 am

Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by jbone1313 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:36 pm

tcpMoniker wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:49 pm
If you use Shaper, a Live tool built in M4L, integrated into the software by Ableton and you bounce it out, you get this beauty:
https://imgur.com/a/gkmUUkH
I just did the same test. I get the same result. But, I do not think it is the same problem as described in this thread, or even a problem at all. I am definitely open to having my mind changed though.

Here is why I came to that conclusion.

I did another test. I added a 200ms dummy latency-inducing device (an inactive External Audio Effect with its hardware latency slider cranked up) BEFORE Shaper. It did not affect the result at all. I repeated the test with 1000ms; same result. Side note: inactive latency-inducing effects still induce latency; disabling them does not remove the latency.

So, I conclude that Shaper is properly compensated.

As for the start delay in your picture, I get that too. I just measured it, and it seems like it is an imperceptible miniscule amount. In my case, the first 1/2 note starts at 0:00:492, and the start of the printed audio output of Shaper is 0:00:494. That is only two milliseconds. That is not perceptible. And, neither changing my buffer nor adding a heavily latency-inducing device before Shaper has any impact.

Am I missing something?

jbone1313
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:44 am

Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by jbone1313 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:37 pm

baseinstinct wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:57 am
Creative use is special cases (think of stuck midi notes - also useful big time sometimes) . There are often some advantages of errors but ableton is a general purpose device.

Once the issue is fixed, some brilliant coder could recreate the current flaw in a dedicated plugin some 1 percent of musicians would be interested in using.
Agree, but my intuition is that the behavior of Beat Repeat and possibly other similar cases is both necessary and desirable. I am not certain though.

baseinstinct
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:45 am

Re: Sync Latency Compensation DISASTER

Post by baseinstinct » Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:12 pm

I have recently been experimenting with randomised breakbeats going in irregular cycles - there is a name for this. when loopered, only until I started to balance the latency of effects with the track settings that the audio align with the rest of the song, If Looper could show the sum of latency of preceding effects - and implementation of this is a matter of 15 minutes for ableton coders because the latency is already calculated per each effect, you would not have to do the math, which can be a nuisance with a long chain of effects.
Then, an addition of the latency compensation for audio clips (not only for tracks) would be great because you could keep on one tracks loopered audio from various effect chains with various recording latencies.
it could be put in the free space under the warp button. A field for value input and an smp/ms switch.

Image
Come on Ableton, why not make it 11.1 :mrgreen:

Also, if racks end up playing intact within themselves, that is different effect chains do play intact within one track, this means that the problem is only on the very output of the recording. I guess this evidence does not even prove anything new ;)
Must be some audio engine bug shared between ableton and traktor - and cubase sx1; not sure now.

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