Cannot drag piano roll notes up/down when entering new notes

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Scoox
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:14 am

Cannot drag piano roll notes up/down when entering new notes

Post by Scoox » Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:15 am

In the piano roll we can adjust note length (swiping the mouse left-right) and the note velocity (swiping the mouse up-down) while we enter new notes via mouse double-click, but there notes cannot be dragged up and down, which is necessary if the note is entered at the wrong pitch.

My experience is that it's quite easy to double-click a little too high, or a little to low, and the note ends up in the wrong place. A lot of us who don't have a music background (in the classical sense) are able to hear the melody in our heads but need some trial and error to get the notes right in the piano roll, which means dragging notes up and down until it sounds "right" (in other words, until it sounds like the melody or chord we had in our heads). It would be nice to do this directly while a new note is being added, but at the moment Live requires users to release the mouse button first before they can drag the note around to the correct position. One extra click may not seem like a lot of extra work but it adds up if it's something you do frequently.

There is yet another closely related problem, discussed here, concerning the duration of note previews in the piano roll. The problem is that note previews have a fixed duration of approximately 360 ms, based on my testing. This duration is hard-coded. Why is this a problem? Well, 360 ms is adequate for fast attack sounds, such as leads, basses, percussion, etc, but is too short for pads and strings, which can have much longer attack times. If the attack time is much longer than 360 ms, you will often not hear anything at all. A new user may think they have found a bug, because note previews are enabled (headphones button = blue) but nothing i heard.

I would like the ability to move notes up and down on double-click to enter, without releasing the mouse button. Perhaps this could be temporarily activated by holding down one a modifier key, and the note off message should only be sent when the user releases the mouse button, to enable users to preview slow attack patches.
Last edited by Scoox on Fri Jul 08, 2022 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jonljacobi
Posts: 887
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:36 am

Re: Adjust note pitch when drawing notes with the mouse

Post by jonljacobi » Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:01 pm

Use the up and down arrow keys. Add the shift key to move them in octaves. I am unequivocally against your suggestion as I find the current method quick and extremely versatile.

There are newly added functions to limit the grid to a specific key, etc. if you're prone to entering undesired notes.

Scoox
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:14 am

Re: Adjust note pitch when drawing notes with the mouse

Post by Scoox » Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:20 pm

jonljacobi wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:01 pm
Use the up and down arrow keys. Add the shift key to move them in octaves. I am unequivocally against your suggestion as I find the current method quick and extremely versatile.

There are newly added functions to limit the grid to a specific key, etc. if you're prone to entering undesired notes.
Yes but why are you so salty? This could easily be made optional, in which case what is there to be against? You are not the only one using Live.

Rivanni
Posts: 400
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:30 pm

Re: Adjust note pitch when drawing notes with the mouse

Post by Rivanni » Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:52 am

Hold the ALT key while drawing and you can move notes up or down. Or disable the 'Draw with pitch lock' setting in Preferences.

Scoox
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:14 am

Re: Adjust note pitch when drawing notes with the mouse

Post by Scoox » Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:04 pm

Rivanni wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:52 am
Hold the ALT key while drawing and you can move notes up or down. Or disable the 'Draw with pitch lock' setting in Preferences.
As I pointed out on Centercode, I don't use Draw Mode. I use the double-click method to add notes, hence what you are referring to is completely irrelevant.

Rivanni
Posts: 400
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:30 pm

Re: Adjust note pitch when drawing notes with the mouse

Post by Rivanni » Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:50 pm

Then don't start your request with a sentence in bold that says "Drawing notes".
If you said from the start that you double click to enter notes I would have asked you why click+dragging notes up or down is not working for you. But you may still answer this question.

Scoox
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:14 am

Re: Adjust note pitch when drawing notes with the mouse

Post by Scoox » Fri Jul 08, 2022 4:03 pm

Rivanni wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:50 pm
Then don't start your request with a sentence in bold that says "Drawing notes".
If you said from the start that you double click to enter notes I would have asked you why click+dragging notes up or down is not working for you. But you may still answer this question.
You have a point there, I can see how it could be confusing. I've re-worded my original post and title quite extensively, if you don't mind reading it again hopefully it's clearer now, thanks.

jonljacobi
Posts: 887
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:36 am

Re: Cannot drag piano roll notes up/down when entering new notes

Post by jonljacobi » Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:11 pm

If I sound a bit salty, it's because there's a non-stop stream of users from other DAWs (in particular FL Studio) who are looking to make the MIDI editor more like what they are used to rather than try to adapt. It's extremely fast and efficient once you're up to speed, as is the program in general. The best advice I ever got here was to "stop fighting it.". There's almost always a way, and often a very clever and efficient one, to do what you want if you just look for it. A lot of the time, it will involve the keyboard. Live is rather two-handed in that regard.

I'm perfectly aware that I'm not the only one using Live, but I'm also not the one arguing for changing basic methodology.

Scoox
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:14 am

Re: Cannot drag piano roll notes up/down when entering new notes

Post by Scoox » Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:01 am

jonljacobi wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:11 pm
If I sound a bit salty, it's because there's a non-stop stream of users from other DAWs (in particular FL Studio) who are looking to make the MIDI editor more like what they are used to rather than try to adapt. It's extremely fast and efficient once you're up to speed, as is the program in general. The best advice I ever got here was to "stop fighting it.". There's almost always a way, and often a very clever and efficient one, to do what you want if you just look for it. A lot of the time, it will involve the keyboard. Live is rather two-handed in that regard.

I'm perfectly aware that I'm not the only one using Live, but I'm also not the one arguing for changing basic methodology.
There are many things I like about Live's piano roll. The missing feature being discussed here is not one of them. This is nothing to do with how it works in other DAWs, it's about a feature that is poorly implemented. Using the arrow keys to shift notes up and down could work (even though it would be very anti-ergonomic with the arrow keys being on the same side as the mouse, assuming most people are right handed) but it is mostly useless if note previews last a fixed and very short amount of time, as I mentioned in my previous post. I can't think of any logical reason why this would be desirable. Are you left-handed?

jonljacobi
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Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:36 am

Re: Cannot drag piano roll notes up/down when entering new notes

Post by jonljacobi » Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:53 pm

Right-handed. Take a look on Youtube for some of the performers using Live. It's very much a two-handed mouse/keyboard deal. Once you're used to it, it's quicker than doing everything via the mouse. I really don't make many mistakes pitch wise. Maybe expand the grid a bit more vertically or use the various folding functions. I don't use these much, but they can be handy if you know you're not doing much chromatically.

jonljacobi
Posts: 887
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:36 am

Re: Cannot drag piano roll notes up/down when entering new notes

Post by jonljacobi » Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:56 pm

As to poorly implemented... It's just different. Like I said, stop fighting it and you'll be much happier, much sooner.

jonljacobi
Posts: 887
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:36 am

Re: Cannot drag piano roll notes up/down when entering new notes

Post by jonljacobi » Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:56 pm

Just wondering, why don't you just use draw mode where dragging does change pitch?

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