The Very Very Saddest "Live" Thing Missing In Live

Share your wishes for the future of Ableton Live
Kodama
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The Very Very Saddest "Live" Thing Missing In Live 5........

Post by Kodama » Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:12 pm

Has to be recording midi automation in clips.


:cry: :cry: :cry:
Last edited by Kodama on Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:43 pm

true.

one day it will come ... if we all pray hard enough


It seems like a totally bizare ommision - I just dont get it. The staff at Ableton must use Live in a completely different way to me. I have to use all sorts of workarounds to just record my twiddling of an effect setting into a loop. A basic feature you would think.

kineticUk
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Post by kineticUk » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:35 pm

yeah dying here for them to make it full midi compatible
I want to use it with drum machines and external synths live but cant really yet.
Need All midi standards NRPN and SYSEX (just save to browser so we can save sounds data stuff and load it via a midi track back into the instruments
I dont think they will add these features though I thought they would have by now.

I just think it would it be great to be able to use live to play everything...all your instruments in time as you punch different brks and loops, as well as manipulate all external equipment on the fly by recording it into audio as you jam..
That would make life so much easier and more fun in my studio.

forge
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Post by forge » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:27 pm

I was hoping for this too

I'd like to be able to have automation tracks that you can route to any other track or to an output so you could have universal clip automation for a track

kineticUk
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Post by kineticUk » Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:36 pm

Yeah
Basically I think if live is going to do midi it should try to do it properly and by that I mean include support for everything that is standard.
At the moment I am just thinking of the things I could do if they included more midi compatibility.Surely it can be done if they wanted to and now live is being marketed as a full DAW like cubase logic etc so people are going to expect more.
The fact is if they sort it out and get all the midi things missing put in, I would gladly stop using my other sequencer cause I think they could make things so much easier with the clip envelopes for midi automation and I like the live interface.
Its a shame that I have to go into another program to do certain things with midi hardware

Machinate
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Post by Machinate » Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:57 pm

I got soooo bummed out when I found out that live 4 didn't do this... In the mean time I guess I got kind of lost in all the other features of four and then v5, but now it's *really* missing. They should just drop that whole "the envelopes are relative to the settings in the plugin, so it can't be do"-schtick.

:roll:

-oh yeah, bump.
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Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:54 pm

I never really understood that "relative envelopes" bit. I mean - who cares!

Say I have an autofilter filter cut-off set at 50% on the envelope window of a midi clip.
Now I want to overdub some controler twiddles as the pattern loops round. I want to assign a midi control to the filter cut-off and hit record on the clip ...

why does it matter that I have 50% currently set on the cutoff?
Live could either overwrite that value it or add to it .

so a dial turn to 5 will either give absolute 5 or 55% , whatever .. I really don't care. Anything is better than nothing.

likewise sending midi CCs from other tracks - what is the matter with tracks receiving relative offsets ? it would work fine for me.

all that happens right now is you assign a controler to the cutoff and you cant record it at all . Stupid.

cubase is more "live" than this.

scientist
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Post by scientist » Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:57 pm

wow, for real? i haven't tried to use this (non-existent) feature yet so i hadn't noticed. so we really can't record midi automation into clips? what about recording midi automation straight to the track in arrange view? and then can that automation be copy/pasted into the clip? i was about to buy a new controller to do just this sorta stuff. bummer.

amo
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Re: The Very Very Saddest "Live" Thing Missing In Live 5........

Post by amo » Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:59 pm

Kodama wrote:Has to be recording midi automation in clips.


:cry: :cry: :cry:
so sad indeed... But let's not get pessimist here ! It will come soon ! :wink:
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Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:04 pm

scientist wrote: what about recording midi automation straight to the track in arrange view? and then can that automation be copy/pasted into the clip?

try it .. you can record some CC tweaks in arrangement - sounds good huh? - now drag that clip into session.

bye-bye tweaky tweaks. You have to enter them by drawing envelopes in Session .. sooo performance orientated.

well, it only took them 5 versions to include 'open recent project' hopefully this ultra-obvious function won't take too much longer.

melocoton
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Post by melocoton » Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:44 am

Sigh... another feature I thought for sure would be in 5. Why do some of the most obvious, logical features keep getting overlooked?

supster
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Post by supster » Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:45 am

melocoton wrote:Why do some of the most obvious, logical features keep getting overlooked?
well - my theory 2 things:

1 - i think theyre too busy and focused and things just slip thru the cracks. release schedule is too fast

2 - some of these things seem simple, but there are probably technical issues we're unaware of.

however:

- no midi assignable hotkey for the browser after 5 versions

- no user definable keymappings after 5 versions

- many interface elements are not assignable and should be

- no recording automation into MIDI clips .. 2 versions

- no consolidate in session view ... 5 versions

- no ALT click to set the new end marker

- lack of advanced detail features to make workflow logical and quick. ie. how about double clicking on loop braces snaps the loop to visible window. Anyone? etc etc

etc etc ...

ive said this before but i really think they should have customer focus groups to come in and work with them on the big pictures

i honestly think they are too busy designing, coding and running the company ..,. we use it more than most of them do now more than likely so we see these things that jump out at uis.
.

.
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Machinate
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Post by Machinate » Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:21 am

it's the same old problem of relative vs. absolute values for the envelopes - you can record all you like in arrangement view, since that overrides the settings in the plugin, but not record in session view, because that's relative to the settings in the plugin.

Well, first of all I think it's absolutely possible to use a live input envelope to control relative parameters. Secondly, why not just add a switch in preferences that turns session view into an absolute area? That would also make clip enveloping a lot cooler ever done a filter sweep as a clip envelope? First you have to set the cutoff mid-way, *then* you can draw your sweeps, and if you want an open filter from then on, you have to manually draw in the +50% envelope on *all the other clips in the track*... not all that intuitive, is it?
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melocoton
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Post by melocoton » Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:59 pm

ive said this before but i really think they should have customer focus groups to come in and work with them on the big pictures
Amen to that. What's cool about Live is that it was like a personal project geared toward the vision of actual musicians. What sucks about Live is that it's like a personal project and is geared toward the vision of only a few specific musicians and how they work. What started out as a blessing has turned into a bit of a curse as Live has grown.

wheel
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Post by wheel » Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:36 am

I think you are being REALLY hard here.

Everyone has their things that they think are the absolute most important thing and that _anyone_ who used the program for a while would immediately put top of the list of things 'missing' ... well thats absolutely, verifiably NOT the case !

different people work in totally different ways, many people never touch parts of the program that other people spend their whole working week inside !

i am regularly astounded by how people use software ... speaking of Live, i know people who use this program for like 16 hours every day and NEVER go into the arrange mode, and i know people who never come out of it !

every program has its strengths and weaknesses ... and what you are asking for is obviously extremely important to you, and IMHO would definitely be an advance for everyone using a lot of MIDI (especially those that dont live in Arrange mode) and i'm sure that if enough people ask for it, it'll happen ... however I believe (and i doubt if i'm wrong) that Ableton work to 2 parallell timetables : one is trying to please people's demands (they want to sell a max of updates) and im sure that they give their attention to the most asked for stuff, but also take into account the amount of programming hours needed to fill these ... AND, parallell to this, there is a 'How _should_ a program like this work ? what would be cool, even if people _aren't_ asking for it, cos they didn't think of it yet. ...
I think this is GOOD. I think that if they were ONLY fulfilling user demands then we would have something closer to other sequencers, insteadd of something that partially we-writes the book according to its own logic. I am _absolutely_ in favour of this approach, annd if it means waiting a bit longer for some things that I personally consider the most urgent, then thats the price to pay, and i'm happy to pay it !

I am absolutely amazed at how far this program has come in so short a time. Really amazed. IMHO it is unique in the DAW world in that respect.
Remember that Pro Tools is what ? 10, 15 years older ? And it still doesn't know what a loop is !!!???? I remember explaining to Digi people at AES like 15 years ago how unbelievably complex it was to 'simulate' looping say a 4 bar figure against a 2 bar figure, which was doeable in 2 clicks in every sequencer on the planet, and how in electronic music loops were kinda useful ...i also told them that in my little world most people _weren't_ using PT _exactly_ for that reason, and provided them with at least 2 different ways of dealing with loops without conflicting with their paradigm ... 15 years later ? 'Loops ? what are those?'

Come on. Ableton are doing pretty damn well IMHO. Ask them regularly for what you want, if possible tell them how you imagine it being implemented, and IF its near the top of the list of demands, AND if its feasible in man-hours per feature ...then they will end up doing it ...

(and just so as you dont think i'm ass licking and just saying 'wow its so cool' ... i saw Robert Henke at Sonar, soon after Live v1.0 came out, and said to him 'this is fantastic, but what I really want is automation of warp markers' he said 'yeah, me too personally, but what people are asking for is VSTi's so it isn't going to happen soon' ... result: VSTis in the next version and i'm STILL waiting for what to me would be the coolest thing possible ... but hey, thats life ...

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