Arrange View Tools (Cubase Style) and F***in Mouse wheel

Ball Sack · Post by **Ball Sack** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:43 pm

Hi,

I dont agree with dr.wanker id much prefer to have the OPTION of tools.

Cheerio.

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:27 pm

dr.wackler wrote:
kineticUk wrote: just use tools so that working inside arrangement is quicker and easier. These tools would take up absolutely no space. Just make life easier and quicker.
If you know where to click and what shortcuts to use, editing in Live is so much quicker and easier than constantly switching tools. Its just that people who 'grew up' with mouse tools are not used to use both hands for operation. Live's operation is based on one 'multi-tool': The selection. And they have implemented that in a genius way, that other DAWs even copied afterwards. No scissors or glue tool or pointers needed, it can all be done by selecting what you want to operate on. Simple, efficient, quick.
I didn't mean that tools would clutter the GUI, but they would clutter this basic idea of combining functions under one hood for simplicity and efficiency at the same time. After working with tool based DAWs for years, when I started to work with Live I found it's way of dealing with selections to make multiple tools redundant nothing but refreshing and astounding. I'd like them to stick with that idea and develop further in that direction.

yeah, maybe for cut, copy, paste. but for tedious multitrack editing and automating in arrangerview, the current zooming methods implemented in Live pale in comparison with zooming in and out with the scroll wheel, plain and simple. Trust me, I've done tons of this type of editing in Live, and tons of it in Sony Vegas (which supports scroll wheel zoooming), and scroll wheel zooming kicks Live's arrangerview zooming in the ass, saving hours upon hours of time in big projects.

snowtires · Post by **snowtires** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:38 pm

kineticUk wrote:Video must have taken some coding, do some simple shi* thats been requested thousands of times now.

i think that's the most to the point thing that's been said on this board since live 6 was released. what a fucking let down. yaaaaaay, half-assed video implementation! yaaaaaaay, multi-threading, something that should have been included as a free update to live 5!

what else got changed? were ANY of the requests in the feature wishlist forum addressed? where's the dual-screen support, time signature automation, manual entry of envelope point values, group tracks / track folders, the option to make the mixer BIGGER, the fifty million other things that would actually make things easier to use this program? oh wow, live remembers your layout settings so you don't have to close the sample browser every time you open the program. THAT required upgrading to live 6 and another 100+ dollars? come on.

dr.wackler · Post by **dr.wackler** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:58 pm

quandry wrote: yeah, maybe for cut, copy, paste. but for tedious multitrack editing and automating in arrangerview, the current zooming methods implemented in Live pale in comparison with zooming in and out with the scroll wheel, plain and simple. Trust me, I've done tons of this type of editing in Live, and tons of it in Sony Vegas (which supports scroll wheel zoooming), and scroll wheel zooming kicks Live's arrangerview zooming in the ass, saving hours upon hours of time in big projects.

No word about zooming in my comments on tools.
Actually I am with you on the wish for scroll wheel (and MightyMouse scroll ball) zooming! I use it all the time in Logic and wouldn't want to miss it.

Fledz · Post by **Fledz** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:07 am

snowtires wrote:
kineticUk wrote:Video must have taken some coding, do some simple shi* thats been requested thousands of times now.
i think that's the most to the point thing that's been said on this board since live 6 was released. what a fucking let down. yaaaaaay, half-assed video implementation! yaaaaaaay, multi-threading, something that should have been included as a free update to live 5!

what else got changed? were ANY of the requests in the feature wishlist forum addressed? where's the dual-screen support, time signature automation, manual entry of envelope point values, group tracks / track folders, the option to make the mixer BIGGER, the fifty million other things that would actually make things easier to use this program? oh wow, live remembers your layout settings so you don't have to close the sample browser every time you open the program. THAT required upgrading to live 6 and another 100+ dollars? come on.

Sad, but so very true. Great program, but just think of the potential it has.

kineticUk · Post by **kineticUk** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:50 am

snowtires wrote:i think that's the most to the point thing that's been said on this board since live 6 was released.

Thanks for showing your support snowtires and everyone who has replied to this.

Alex Klar · Post by **Alex Klar** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:26 pm

I completely agree with dr.wackler,
always found this tools very primitive.
Does anyone one of you already worked with protools?

Josh Von · Post by **Josh Von** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:51 am

dr.wackler wrote: If you know where to click and what shortcuts to use, editing in Live is so much quicker and easier than constantly switching tools.

i totally agree with this, ive never missed the cubase style 'tool palette' paradigm at all and think the current way is way more direct and efficient

on the other hand i did try the mousewheel support script for PC and it was nice ... i dont think he's done one for Live 6 yet (?) but having it in there definitely improved the workflow imo

.

davidbayles · Post by **davidbayles** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:56 pm

Scrollwheel zooming would be great, but it would also be nice to do the click and drag zooming without having to navigate the mouse to the ruler (via a hotkey). For instance, if you hold down a modifier key (like ctrl or option or some combo) the cursor would change into the zoom tool - anywhere in arrange view...

I like scrollwheel zooming in Logic and the like, but the click and drag zooming is much faster at getting all the way down to the sample level. The thing that's slow is having to navigate the cursor over the ruler every five seconds.

BTW, they already have something similar to this with the grab tool (cmd+shift changes the cursor into the grabber). They should add a key combo for the zoomer; I would use it all the time.

A key combo for the scrubber would be awesome too...

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:07 pm

dr.wackler wrote:No scissors or glue tool or pointers needed, it can all be done by selecting what you want to operate on. Simple, efficient, quick.

Except that it's not always that quick. I do all of my drum fills manually in Live's arrange view, and having to individually select and CTRL+E a bunch of drum hits in an audio loop is annoying. Much slower than hitting the key command to call up my scissors tool in SX, and then click, click, click each hit to isolate it.

I'm all for keeping Live neat and simple, but there are a few areas it's more awkward at IMO.

davidbayles · Post by **davidbayles** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:24 pm

What if a bunch of different tools (scissors included) could be toggled on/off by holding a modifier key/combo?

For example:

- cmd+shift changes the cursor to the grabber (already in Live 6)
- option+ctrl could change the cursor to scissors
- shift+ctrl could change the cursor to the zoomer
- option+shift could change the cursor to the scrubber
- ctrl+cmd could change the cursor to the trimmer

that way you could use the tools while the modifier(s) where held down, but it would toggle back to the cursor as soon as you released the key/combo... and you could use the tool without having to hover over a location. This is the best of both worlds: no extra clutter, same functionality as PT, Logic, etc.

This way there would really be NO extra UI, just an extension of something Ableton already did (i.e. the grabber tool).

If you don't want to use it, you would never know it was there...

Sidenote: does anybody use the grabber tool?

kineticUk · Post by **kineticUk** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:57 pm

Tarekith wrote:I'm all for keeping Live neat and simple, but there are a few areas it's more awkward at IMO.

I think so too. Agreed.

photonicrecords wrote:What if a bunch of different tools (scissors included) could be toggled on/off by holding a modifier key/combo?

I kinda like the idea...or at least something similar.

photonicrecords wrote:If you don't want to use it, you would never know it was there...

Yeah exactly, like video support

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:23 pm

Live has video support?!?!

John Daminato · Post by **John Daminato** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:23 am

dr.wackler wrote:
kineticUk wrote: just use tools so that working inside arrangement is quicker and easier. These tools would take up absolutely no space. Just make life easier and quicker.
If you know where to click and what shortcuts to use, editing in Live is so much quicker and easier than constantly switching tools. Its just that people who 'grew up' with mouse tools are not used to use both hands for operation. Live's operation is based on one 'multi-tool': The selection. And they have implemented that in a genius way, that other DAWs even copied afterwards. No scissors or glue tool or pointers needed, it can all be done by selecting what you want to operate on. Simple, efficient, quick.
I didn't mean that tools would clutter the GUI, but they would clutter this basic idea of combining functions under one hood for simplicity and efficiency at the same time. After working with tool based DAWs for years, when I started to work with Live I found it's way of dealing with selections to make multiple tools redundant nothing but refreshing and astounding. I'd like them to stick with that idea and develop further in that direction.

This guy has a good point and I really thought of that before I made my request for a ginsu tool. Lets say I want to cut a loop into 16 pieces. The selection tool would take way too long. Should be able to one left click on a one bar piece of audio. Expand view to quantize value 1/16. Left click to select scissors. right click one more time on selected loop and bam 16 pieces. That would take 3 seconds when you got good. Doing 15 control + E's would take more then 30seconds and honestly make me not want to go thru the hassle, which means my creativity is hindered. "There is a thin line between simplicity and efficiency". Shit, I think I just made up a new saying right there.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:54 am

dr.wackler wrote:If you know where to click and what shortcuts to use, editing in Live is so much quicker and easier than constantly switching tools. Its just that people who 'grew up' with mouse tools are not used to use both hands for operation. Live's operation is based on one 'multi-tool': The selection. And they have implemented that in a genius way, that other DAWs even copied afterwards. No scissors or glue tool or pointers needed, it can all be done by selecting what you want to operate on. Simple, efficient, quick.
I didn't mean that tools would clutter the GUI, but they would clutter this basic idea of combining functions under one hood for simplicity and efficiency at the same time. After working with tool based DAWs for years, when I started to work with Live I found it's way of dealing with selections to make multiple tools redundant nothing but refreshing and astounding. I'd like them to stick with that idea and develop further in that direction.

Totally disagree. As a fellow Logic user, I'm really surprised you think this, Logic destroys Live when it comes to editing, and it's simply due to the fact that in Live YOU HAVE TO MOUSE AROUND THE FUCKING SCREEN MORE THAN YOU DO IN ANY OTHER APPLICATION FOR MUSIC!!!

Not directed at you at all, I just hate how the best live performance tool bar none is constantly crippled by it's audience in favor of romper room level feature implementations designed for people who want to play loop DVD's, and never read the manual!

I absolutely despise the zooming in Live, and the fact that FF and RW are an afterthought, or that you have to mouse around the top of the arrangement page for features like scrubbing... For a live application, the simple and undeniable fact that you mouse around more than you ever do in Logic is a sad statement on the target audience VS the supposed advantages.
(rant over for now)

Arrange View Tools (Cubase Style) and F***in Mouse wheel

Re: Arrange View Tools (Cubase Style) and F***in Mouse wheel

Re: Arrange View Tools (Cubase Style) and F***in Mouse wheel

Re: Arrange View Tools (Cubase Style) and F***in Mouse wheel