recording automation to clips

Share your wishes for the future of Ableton Live
The Phat Conductor
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Post by The Phat Conductor » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:14 am

+1
ill gates aka the phat conductor
producer, performer + ableton/music teacher

http://www.illgates.com

jasper
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Post by jasper » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:39 am

you are missing something.

I just read your post and was about to bump it.

Try this, I don't know if this is what you'e talking about.

in session view double click the clip you want to add controllers to.
to the left of the pianoRoll are the 'Clip, Launch, Notes, Envelopes'
panes.
in the envelopes pane, in the top left drop down menu choose 'MIDI Ctrl'.
the drop down under that choose a controller#.
arm the track for recording, press the Clip's round record button.
move the controller as the clip records it.
Now it's recorded into the clip and the arrangement wasn't changed.

Then again, I might not be understanding what the problem is.

kuniklo
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Post by kuniklo » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:42 pm

jasper wrote: Then again, I might not be understanding what the problem is.
You aren't. You can record midi cc data into session clips. You can't record automation. Try wiggling a filter cutoff or something while you're recording a session clip.

rwillson
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Post by rwillson » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:32 pm

i think some developer or developers over at Ableton were putting down one to beers many on the Job or made one to many trips to Amsterdam to have missed this option, yes... you can record real time automation within the arrangment viev, uh sorry can't do that in the clip view... Hey pass me that bud and a bottle Grolsh while you work on that new C++ program thread...

maybe in the future, that's what wishlists are for...

r...

[nis]
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Post by [nis] » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:08 pm

Some of you might have ignored the last passage of my support email which chris_in_london has posted further above.
chris_in_london wrote: A feature to record automation data right into the session view is quite
on top of our internal wishlist, but it requires a profound
reprogramming of the whole Live engine. We currently cannot say if, how
and when such a feature could be implemented into Live.
It's not that we are sleeping on this one. And we actually do read this forum - at least as often as we can. My apologizes if you feel that we don't post much here. We would do more if someone can extend a day to 48 hours. Can you?

From my personal point of view (and despite the fact that I'm working for Ableton), I think that Live is still one of the most powerful and intuitive DAWs out there, although there are without a doubt still MANY things to improve. Having that in mind and believing (or hoping) that you guys are thinking the same way, I'd rather like to see some constructive ideas and discussions here instead of posts like "bomb them with emails until we get our feature". If you think twice of how-to-implement such a feature, there will come up a couple of questions which aren't easy to answer.

Some quick thoughts: unfortunately it's not possible to display automation data in the same way as in the arrangement view. There you've got the clip envelopes and on the other hand the automation envelopes, which are displayed right within a track. Since clips in the session view can have various loop lenghts, how would you display an automation envelope in the session view? My personal thought would be: "let's put them down there into the clip view and have a switchable envelopes box, which either shows the clip envelopes or the automation envelope", but then: what would you do with the automation data in the arrangement view? Put them into a switchable env box as well? Ok fine, but this would make it ultra uncomfortable to edit automation curves in the arrangement. You just can't take them away from where they are right now. Also, this would bring up the question how can you record an automation envelope into the session view which ranges over multiple clips? It's not easy at all and I don't wanna know which other questions you will have to answer if you come from a developer/programmer side. (Lucky me has not to toil with program codes!).

Some things to rack your brains.

Best regards,
Nico

p.s. I apologize in advance if I don't find enough time to reply to this thread in a foreseeable time.
Nico Starke
Ableton Product Team

hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:08 pm

Hey Nico,

Thanks for the reply. Starting a dialogue about this issue is exactly what we need.
There are lots of people with opinions and feelings about this.
I've also considered the unlinked automation issue, since I rely heavily on the use of dummy clips.
[nis] wrote:Some quick thoughts: unfortunately it's not possible to display automation data in the same way as in the arrangement view. There you've got the clip envelopes and on the other hand the automation envelopes, which are displayed right within a track. Since clips in the session view can have various loop lenghts, how would you display an automation envelope in the session view? My personal thought would be: "let's put them down there into the clip view and have a switchable envelopes box, which either shows the clip envelopes or the automation envelope", but then: what would you do with the automation data in the arrangement view? Put them into a switchable env box as well? Ok fine, but this would make it ultra uncomfortable to edit automation curves in the arrangement.
I think this needs to be broken down into several features.

Firstly, Live would require the ability to display more then 1 automation curve per track.

Once that is possible, we can start looking at the following suggestion:

Since clip envelopes are different from the arrangement envelopes, there should be a way to display both in the arrangement view.
Maybe the clip automation line could be a different color or have a slightly colored background.

How does the automation from the clip get displayed?
A right-click command (or button) in the clip view that lets you "link the envelope to the automation view". This option would only be available in the arrangement view.
However. If the clip in question has unlinked envelopes, then the automation line must be show in the arrangement by default.

If a clip with unlinked envelopes is placed in the arrangement view to edit envelopes, there needs to be a way to indicate that the envelope has it's own timeline to follow.
I see 2 possible solutions.

1- A mini playhead for the unlinked portion. Lets say you have a 4 bar clip with a 16 bar envelope. You would see the 4 bars in the arrangement, under it you would see a 16 bar automation line.
This brings the problem, "what if i add another clip with the same properties on bar 5. Wouldn't the envelopes overlap?"
Yes they would. But not if the envelopes of the selected clip are the only ones displayed.

2- The unlinked envelope lines could just be placed on 2 automation lines of the same parameter (a line gets added for each overlapping parameter).

Another problem i see is the relation between absolute and relative values.
For an automation to have full effect, a parameter needs to be full open/closed/centered.
So wanting to record automation while keeping control over the amount of effect an automation line has, might be a bit of a problem.

My suggested solution: Clip Learn!
It's like MIDI learn to a parameter, instead you "learn" it to a clip envelope(s).
This parameter only affects the automation line while something is being recorded.
The automation line constantly sends feedback to the controller.
Now that we have parameter feedback on controllers. We can have a visual indication of an automation line on a LED ring for example.

I'll stop here. There are probably more then enough problems you can raise for the suggestion i gave.
But if it gets you guys talking (outside of a beta phase), its all worth it :D

Cheers

- Bjorn

jasefos
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Post by jasefos » Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:49 am

++1

I find this omission a little puzzling but not show stopping. Certainly it would make Session view clips an even more powerful and mature feature.

cheers !
JaseFOS

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mercyplease
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Post by mercyplease » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:12 pm

The lack of this feature has nothing to do wth Abletion not realising people want or they didnt think about it.

:)
HA HA HA :twisted:

Kodama
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Post by Kodama » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:49 pm

Fixing this problem has everything to do with keeping in line Live's wonderful way of working in a free, nonlinear fashion.

I can't believe that a logical way to make this happen is any tougher than any of the thousands of programming logic issues that Ableton have already solved?

I know this feature request goes against the original philosophy for Live, but, your paying customers who love you :-D want it very badly, perhaps our perception of Live is different than Ableton's but since we buy Live in droves, I don't think that makes it a bad thing!



- Since clips in the session view can have various loop lenghts, how would you display an automation envelope in the session view?


Just have them "painted" in, like the way that audio loops are "painted" in to the timeline.


- what would you do with the automation data in the arrangement view? Put them into a switchable env box as well?


No, just merge everything to fit the current arrangement dynamic once moved to arrangement.


Why would envelope clips have to be a seperate entity from automation clips?



- how can you record an automation envelope into the session view which ranges over multiple clips?


You wouldn't be able to without consolidating clips or recording automation in arrangement.
GO VEGAN!!! - Macbook Air, Bass Station II, Some Korg shit, Live Suite, U-He, Audio Damage, Microtonic, Ohmicide, more soft stuffs, awesome controllers, euro rack modular synth,an awesome cat.

posssu
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Post by posssu » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:36 pm

I'd just want the basic feature that when I open a midi clip and view it's envelope, there was some way to put midi data into it without drawing it by hand but using the controller. Currently it's not possible.

Just the ability to use the controller to record stuff into a midi clip in the session view. To the same envelopes which can be drawn to by hand in draw-mode, nothing new to add.
Juhana Lehtiniemi - Film composer with Ableton Live

Soma
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Post by Soma » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:46 am

- Since clips in the session view can have various loop lenghts, how would you display an automation envelope in the session view?

K.I.S.S.
Just record the automation directly to the clip envelope. If the clip loops more than once, the envelope is longer than the clip. Already possible with drawing just let us use a cc or GUI knob to draw as time moves.
A simple global toggle box to decide to record to session clip or arrangement track would do it, unless I'm missing something.
If that has problems, what about a record button on the "envelopes box"? The record button would work kind of like like the record button for an empty clip, only for clip envelope info.



- what would you do with the automation data in the arrangement view? Put them into a switchable env box as well?

Leave it there. I want to record envelopes to the clip envelope.


- how can you record an automation envelope into the session view which ranges over multiple clips?

I would record only to the armed track and the active clip. Just like recording midi only recording vst/albleton parameters instead. (Using the GUI or an assigned controller as input).


THANKS FOR LISTENING!
:o

Kodama
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Post by Kodama » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:15 pm

I defer to Soma's answers, they seem to be saying what I am but with much improved clarity :D

Basically, I guess Ableton thought that we would only be recording audio and midi notes in our "Sessions", then have them mixed down, arranged & automated later.

The flaw with this is that for many of us, the recorded automation is as (or more) important than the notes themselves and are integral with the initial creative effort, rather than only a finalizing step.
GO VEGAN!!! - Macbook Air, Bass Station II, Some Korg shit, Live Suite, U-He, Audio Damage, Microtonic, Ohmicide, more soft stuffs, awesome controllers, euro rack modular synth,an awesome cat.

Soma
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Post by Soma » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:10 pm

Kodama wrote: The flaw with this is that for many of us, the recorded automation is as (or more) important than the notes themselves and are integral with the initial creative effort, rather than only a finalizing step.
That sounds about as clear as can be to me :P

astar
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Post by astar » Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:44 pm

Right now clips only contain relative envelopes. Why not have BOTH absolute and relative envelopes right inside the clips? This way you can record absolute midi controller tweaks directly into any clip. The relative envelope would follow the absolute envelope (also maybe have an option to ignore the absolute envelope if the regular Live behaviour is preferred).

The only problem this creates is then how does arrangement view know how to handle these absolute envelopes inside clips ? I am thinking you would have to rewrite the way arrange view handles automation or somehow make it so the absolute clip envelopes get converted to arrange view automation when dragging or recording session clips to arrange view and vice versa.

cheers

Soma
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Post by Soma » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:34 pm

I'd be fine with just being able to record the same relative evelopes that already exist.

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