MIDI in live?

Share your wishes for the future of Ableton Live

Do You want to use Midi and VSTi WITHIN live?

yes, definately
52
80%
not my cup of tea
13
20%
 
Total votes: 65

nosuch
Posts: 269
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:45 pm
Location: cologne

MIDI in live?

Post by nosuch » Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:06 pm

Who could use midi sequenzing incorporated in live?

please write in a comment which features you need.

for myself it does not have to be much editing (quantise is enough for me) I track midi instruments the same way I track audio anyway
- it's only because i'd like to use VSTis (other than reason) and arrange my midi sequenzes the same way I do with audio. in live. not in reason or something.
and i want to store everything in one file.

it does not have to be a full blown midi editor - just keep it simple (like tracktion maybe)
...just trying to figure out how to make my computer sing....

Guest

Midi in Ableton, now that would be awesome.

Post by Guest » Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:32 pm

If i could use midiphrases like the wav's in Ableton, i would drop my softsequencer like a bad habit (VST 5.0 PB2). The workflow in Ableton is so much more efficient and inspiring. I would only need a keyeditor with at least the ability to draw notes,vellocity,controllers and sysex (to contol the filters of some of my synths). However if one could import a Cubase-part with the sysex incorporated this would be acceptable. I mainly want to use Ableton as a sequencer, recording phrases om the fly by (un)muting, triggering etc,etc. I would also like to see the loop markers, warp markers, etc in the "midiclipview". And I would also like so see some simple miditransformfunctions like, reversing, inverting, pointmirroring etc. So basically I would like to see (musical) functions which can not be found in any other sequencer (exept the reverse midi in Cubase). In my opinion this would make Ableton the best musicproduction platform ever. Thanks for keeping it floaterfree, so i can cocentrate on making music instead of resizing, rearranging, closing windows all the time.

Edwin Uytenbroek
Studio Manager
Cultural Centre Delft University of Technology
"Mekelweg 10"

podprod
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:16 pm

midi

Post by podprod » Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:25 pm

Hi all
I am requsting midi as an important aspect of this program and can agree
with our friend from the university above in that..for those of us using midi and the mapping ideas of tempo this would make us drop digital performer,cubase,logic..dare I even say pro tools with its limited midi ability although even PT is coming around and seeing the benefits of upgrading their midi deficient program..
yes guys keep it simple..multiple loop points and basic tempo midi map ..basic sequencer..dont go crazy with features except for quantize ..simple cut and paste of midi data...
My 2 cents again..
also..for the live brothers and sisters who are against any midi features
Please try to understand..this program and every program out there started as a midi based concept before audio was developed more fully for the computers..so the benefits of midi inclusion are not only if you have midi gear..some things that come to mind that you might want to think about are..midi map for tempo..importing maps from exhisting songs of other programs..not to mention tying in vst's and the like..
C'mon..add Kontakt or giga with this baby and you might change your mind..
All for now..
Please try and communicate here with concrete ideas looking toward the future..we can all benefit from midi..
regards to the team and all the able boys and girls!
POD

Guest

Post by Guest » Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:35 pm

I would like midi clip in Live, and VSTi too. But I'm not really hot about an integrated MIDI Editor in Live... not that I don't see the use of it, but I don't see the use in a performance situation. An external MIDI editor would be the best of both world I think, so it doesn't load with Live when you don't need it. It would be the same for a eventual Audio editor...

But reading MIDI clip/file including all the MIDI messages is defenetly a must, and the VSTi too.

nosuch
Posts: 269
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:45 pm
Location: cologne

Post by nosuch » Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:20 am

Anonymous wrote:I would like midi clip in Live, and VSTi too. But I'm not really hot about an integrated MIDI Editor in Live...
I don' know, what a "midi editor" should be, but for me the possibility to record midi events (notes) and make them audible with a vsti is what I look forward to see in live (recording midi events the same way as audio events)
not everybody works with prepared material - and live is not just a live tool, but an arranging instrument.
I don't know why the Live as live warriors bother so much - they do not complain about the arrangement view either - so why not have basic midi recording (and playing - live) accessable?

I say it again - have a look at the way midi is integrated in tracktion. if you don't use it you don't notice it. please stop being so defensive.
...just trying to figure out how to make my computer sing....

umami
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 9:15 pm
Location: oot 'n aboot
Contact:

Post by umami » Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:18 pm

here's an idea: tracktion does a really nice job with MIDI already. if it ran as a rewire slave instead of just master, live would have a sweet, simple solution for MIDI support. i've talked a bit with julian, tracktion's developer, about incorporating this feature, but he doesn't see it as essential. ("why can't you just rewire live into tracktion?" i can think of a good dozen reasons why not, starting with the fact that your workflow then becomes dependent upon tracktion instead of live...) i think if more live users were to push this issue with him, it might motivate him to work on it sooner...

i'm all for some kind of MIDI host that works within live (instead of forcing live to work within everything else), but the complexity of adding MIDI features has a considerable chance of munging up one of the best pieces of software ever. is it worth the risk? i'm sure the abletons are asking themselves that question constantly. if they (or julian, dammit!) developed a separate "MIDI Live" program that ran along side live, i'd happily throw more money their way.

nosuch
Posts: 269
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:45 pm
Location: cologne

Post by nosuch » Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:49 pm

umami wrote:the complexity of adding MIDI features has a considerable chance of munging up one of the best pieces of software ever. is it worth the risk?
uh? what are you afraid of? midi sequencers run stable for like 10 years. so what is the risk.
I'd rather see it in live insead of rewiring tracktion or anything, because then I have my arrangement in one window instead of two or three. why? I give you a simple example: my last big project was the music for a theatre play. cues where constantly changing so I had to cut and paste time all the time. If I do that with e.g. reason rewired, the reason sequenzer will not follow my cuts and pastes, so after some edits I would not find my own head in my files.
I understand that many users see live as an instrument to play live but it is much more than that - and there are legion ways to use it. ableton anounces it as a tool for scoring for example. even if you see it just as an instrument for performances: would it be bad to use some rektor synth or the like sometimes?
...just trying to figure out how to make my computer sing....

sixela
Posts: 181
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:56 pm
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Contact:

Post by sixela » Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:52 am

umami wrote: i think if more live users were to push this issue with him, it might motivate him to work on it sooner...

....
absolutely man, I've been hassling him for the same thing, he needs persuading. I think the ultimate soft/laptop studio would be Live as master, tracktion, reaktor, FLstudio and reason.

If tracktion would slave, it would be the ultimate - it's not too heavy so that it eats up all the resources like the big guys(Logic SX etc) but it's not so light as the reason sequencer - it's a perfect in between to use inside live.

Guest

Post by Guest » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:57 pm

nosuch: "would it be bad to use some reaktor synth or the like sometimes?" not at all. you missed my point. live NEEDS vsti support. i'm just not going to say that it HAS to come from within live itself. might be nice, but it is worth considering how much complexity MIDI adds. cubase, logic, et al are heniously complicated for a reason. even tracktion, arguably one of the more simple sequencers out there, makes Live look very clean.

sixela: my email exchanges with him were promising, but ended dismally. it's too bad that he doesn't see the potential here--tracktion is so similar to Live in many ways, i suspect he'd have a flood of Live users jumping on his software. the only hope is that more people pester him... to be fair, apparently right now he's working on "rack filters" which essentially open tractktion up to the possiblity of multiple outs, which it currently lacks. once that gets finished, perhaps it will break the necessary ground to add rewire slave support.

umami
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 9:15 pm
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Contact:

Post by umami » Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:10 am

bah. that was me. thought i was logged in. :roll:

nosuch
Posts: 269
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:45 pm
Location: cologne

Post by nosuch » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:04 am

Anonymous wrote:i'm just not going to say that it HAS to come from within live itself. might be nice, but it is worth considering how much complexity MIDI adds. cubase, logic, et al are heniously complicated for a reason. even tracktion, arguably one of the more simple sequencers out there, makes Live look very clean.
umami, sorry to insist, but...
... IMO all that rewire stuff sucks from the moment i have to build midi in reason, audio in live. if I have to do edits like cutting times (as I am doing internet and game soundtracks as well as music for theatres this is one of my most hated, nevertheless often performed moves) I have to do it in TWO arranger windows. stupid! redundant! my workaround right now is to record everything as audio so I can arrange in live. but that is for the price of performing many redundant clicks.
So why do I use live instead of logic, tracktion etc.?
to be honest: I bought tracktion for that reason, but (leaving all crashes in OSX) beside, it lacks the convenience in prehearing and importing prerecorded material live gives me (in fact, in OSX it does not yet has any prehearing function in the import dialogue, grrr). anyway i think tracktion is not ready for professional use. but that's a different story
Yesterday I was scoring a game and wanted to use just some drumcomputer, chords and bassline from reason. so I sequenced in reason and than recorded one track after another into live. if I could have sequenced that dirctly in live I am sure i would have spared 2 hours. not to mention that i have to deal with two sets of shortcuts.
on the other hand: I later decided to add some drum loops to my arrangement. no brainer in live, done in seconds.
Is it really so bad to wish for an integrated workbench?
...just trying to figure out how to make my computer sing....

sixela
Posts: 181
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:56 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by sixela » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:10 pm

as far as live and midi goes, i would rather not see it incorporated, I think it would weigh it down un-necessarily

I'm finding it's pretty damn fine as it is, and considering the upgrade to 3 and all it's great features seems to have been a bit of a performance trade off (well it would be if you're automating all these things in clips etc...) I don't know whether adding in depth features like midi is really wise

- I view live more as like a multitrack tape recorder you can use live - the emphasis is more on actually playing - it just means you have to practice your keyboard skills rather than relying on sequencing

- you can get some great effects by recording the likes of reaktor into live as audio (via bidule or FL studio) and then messing with all the clip automation and warp markers

I'm finding the longer i use live, the more i find out about the way it works, and I really feel pretty damn content with it the way it is- I found because I started out using it for actually prodducing, I didn't go too into it in it's intended live context, so now i'm getting a picture of what it can do (especially with good controllers like the UC-33 and my Cs2x keyboard - although a UC-33 and remote 25 would probably be ideal) i'm finding it's really, really impressive



I would much rather see tracktion run in slave mode, or somthing like that so you can load a sequencer if you want to - but if that's not going to happen, then really we just need some kind of rewire slave plug-in type midi only sequencer - maybe like the reason one but stand alone, just for VSTis etc - there must be something like that around somewhere...... surely

nosuch
Posts: 269
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:45 pm
Location: cologne

Post by nosuch » Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:10 pm

sixela wrote: it just means you have to practice your keyboard skills rather than relying on sequencing
thank you! good advice ;-)
personally I do not edit much but play things on the keyboard - but it may be that I use just a simple sound to catch a moment of inspiration and later work on the sound design (ok, there are the plugs - but if I want a fundamental different sound?). for drum programming it is also fine to loop while recording, isn't it?

I do not believe that midi sequencing would make live unstable or add much cpu load. about ten years ago, when I started to use computers sequencing was the only application available - and it worked fine, even on a 68k cpu. I know i am a technical moron, but I still think it can't be as bad as some people think...
...just trying to figure out how to make my computer sing....

paulski

MIDI in Live

Post by paulski » Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:57 pm

I just love this software more than anything I've used before it, but triggering MIDI sequences from Live would make this the perfect piece of software I have been envisioning for years. Personally, having come from a background of using MIDI for many years, the lack of MIDI in this regard is actually a large gap. It doesn't have to be anything fancy - just let me trigger sequences the same way I trigger wavs.

Guest

Re: MIDI in Live

Post by Guest » Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:52 pm

paulski wrote:I just love this software more than anything I've used before it, but triggering MIDI sequences from Live would make this the perfect piece of software I have been envisioning for years. Personally, having come from a background of using MIDI for many years, the lack of MIDI in this regard is actually a large gap. It doesn't have to be anything fancy - just let me trigger sequences the same way I trigger wavs.
funny enough, I'm really getting used to it as is. It's getting me playing keyboard again, and if you make full use of all the midi channels, give some clips their own channel and a full keyboard, you just hit record and record everything into the arrange window, so between that and the warp markers and sample offset automation, I don't hink we need midi in live.

I really like the fact that it's got me away from midi - it's a whole new, fresh approach that i feel really brings something new to my music - I'm not missing it at all, I just do things differently. It's like going back to pre midi and figuring out a way of splicing tape in real time and then playing all the splices!

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