MIDI in live?

Share your wishes for the future of Ableton Live

Do You want to use Midi and VSTi WITHIN live?

yes, definately
52
80%
not my cup of tea
13
20%
 
Total votes: 65

nosuch
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Re: MIDI in Live

Post by nosuch » Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:19 am

Anonymous wrote:I really like the fact that it's got me away from midi - it's a whole new, fresh approach that i feel really brings something new to my music
ahem. I think that was the only possible approach BEFORE midi.
I am tempted to second this - if I use live for my personal pleasure. when I have to get a job done I'd prefer to have the possibilities midi offers, e.g. changing the sound source, transposing without sacrificing fidelity.
C'mon: I am sure it would do no harm to those who won't use it...
...just trying to figure out how to make my computer sing....

jhayward30

clip sequencer

Post by jhayward30 » Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:33 pm

I agree, one of the nice things about live is that you don't have to use midi if you don't want and it opens doors for new approaches to creativity.

One use of some sort of control message (probably midi would be easiest) that would be great in a performance situation, though, would be a clip sequencer so you could setup loops of clips switching between each other while performing, allowing for larger and more complex arrangements live. that way you could setup a loop of clips and leave it and then setup another loop of clips, etc...

what are peoples thoughts on this type of sequencer in live, it would be more like a drum machine use of midi to trigger loops than a true sequencer.

sixela
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Post by sixela » Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:36 pm

nosuch wrote:I do not believe that midi sequencing would make live unstable or add much cpu load. about ten years ago, when I started to use computers sequencing was the only application available - and it worked fine, even on a 68k cpu. I know i am a technical moron, but I still think it can't be as bad as some people think...
true a basic fruity loops style piano roll probably wouldn't go amis - even if it was a plug in in the fx section - so you could for example drag it onto the track fx panel, then drag reaktor fx in after it and play it that way - would be really nice if midi in could be routed to reaktor fx too so we could properly play it into live without having to step sequence

loo909
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The MIDI question...

Post by loo909 » Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:54 am

I'm not a professional, music is much more than work for me... A MIDI implementation could be interesting, as it doesn't complicate Live too much... Ableton, if you do so with MIDI, please keep in mind that we are musicians, not programmers (I'm both, but not at the same time). By now, it seems to be a leitmotiv in your company, so don't loose the drive, and your MIDI implementation will beat everything on the market... That's my feeling, keep it simple and focus on ease of use, on interface. And if anyone at Ableton has a better solution than MIDI, don't hesitate, develop it (I know, it sounds idealistic, but I'm a dreamer... I dreamt of Live, and you did it, and it's so hot). MIDI is working, I won't deny it, but it's a low level language... I'm sure that someone has something better in his mind, a high-level music standard, as I think we don't need to see CC, RPN numbers and all this shit anymore... It happened in other software domains, and I'm sure it will happen in music sofware too. There must be a better solution than MIDI, or maybe a way to take MIDI to a higher step. I will say : don't just implement MIDI in Live, modify MIDI to suit Live philosophy. Musicians deserve better computer-based tools, and upgrading the MIDI standard is surely one of the most interesting challenge to innovate in the music software domain. Another challenge could be a way to plug Live directly in the brain of the musician, but it's another story... Imagine, only your brain and your body as controllers... Wow, I read too much Sci-Fi, I think...

Bye
loo909, Live lover

Guest

midi schmidi

Post by Guest » Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:42 am

have you read the tips and tricks on the abes front page?

head
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vsti's in live...

Post by head » Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:28 pm

ok, simple...: as soon as VSTi's become usable through and recordable into Live - Even, to start, with only one or two midi sequencing track only -
then, Live will become quite a different tool immediately.

As composer,it is already, in my case, a vital part of my process, but many of my non-dj friends - although they like what live has to offer now -are not so sure about the way they could integrate it into their process as composers.
VSTi's would answer that question for them.

h
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sixela
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Post by sixela » Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:52 am

I've changed my mind.

My music partner and i just 'remembered' he has a cs6r - never even used the thing, got it and then good old reason came along and made it too easy to not use it, but i'm sure it must be pure wickedness.

If there was basic midi (including midi out which propellerheads wont do for some reason) then we could use it with just live, I'm happy to use tracktion - but again it'll be a long while before tracktion goes rewire slave, so we have to have it master and miss out on all the juicy recording options in live. Shame. Oh well, I'll keep hassling jules@tracktion, and by the time he does that live will probably have midi :?

Per Boysen
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Post by Per Boysen » Fri Nov 28, 2003 1:04 am

I think there are other features that are more important, like finshing up what Ableton has already started to implement. Here's a bunch that comes to my mind:

1) Option in preferences: always record as RAM based clips.
2) Save and recall customized pre-sets of clip envelopes.
3) External midi control of sample parameters.

Just sit back for a minute and THINK about what you could do with Live if those three wishes should be there. Truely mindblowing!

The only reason, I can imagine, for releasing 3.0 without these three features, is that there simply wasn't enough time to implement it fully. So where would all the time needed for a brand new midi engine come from? I'm just asking you to complete the great stuff you have already implied with 3.0. Make it real! Make it the best software performance tool, that could even be run by midi pedal boards if you need your hands for other instruments.
Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
http://www.perboysen.com

sixela
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Post by sixela » Fri Nov 28, 2003 4:11 pm

Per Boysen wrote:I think there are other features that are more important, like finshing up what Ableton has already started to implement. Here's a bunch that comes to my mind:

1) Option in preferences: always record as RAM based clips.
2) Save and recall customized pre-sets of clip envelopes.
3) External midi control of sample parameters.

Just sit back for a minute and THINK about what you could do with Live if those three wishes should be there. Truely mindblowing!

The only reason, I can imagine, for releasing 3.0 without these three features, is that there simply wasn't enough time to implement it fully. So where would all the time needed for a brand new midi engine come from? I'm just asking you to complete the great stuff you have already implied with 3.0. Make it real! Make it the best software performance tool, that could even be run by midi pedal boards if you need your hands for other instruments.
i dont doubt it.

I agree mostly it's so good as is i've been saying i didn't think it needed midi, but thinking about it, being able to use outboard midi gear without any other apps - the less add-ons or rewire etc the better the performance will be.....surely

guest

just add a sequencer already!!

Post by guest » Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:43 pm

Allright, you guys- i'll keep it to the point. Audio sucks. Samples suck. If I don't have total tweakage control over my instrument (not a recording, an INSTRUMENT), then I say throw it to the wayside. The fact that Live doesn't support midi is the one and only thing that keeps me from getting this otherwise killer program. I would go as far as to say that Live, in fact, SUCKS because it doesn't sequence midi.

Of course, that's just my opinion, but there's a growing number of us who are totally sick of wanking with set-in-stone audio files, and want to freaking play music already. In fact, I can't think of any electronic musician that plays live sets using exclusively audio recordings, excluding turntablists. Live's potential is bursting at the seams, but it still doesn't turn my computer into a integrated, playable instrument in the way that it could if it could just freaking sequence. Won't SOMEONE please develop a decent live midi sequencing program??

Guest

Re: just add a sequencer already!!

Post by Guest » Sun Nov 30, 2003 8:09 pm

guest wrote:Allright, you guys- i'll keep it to the point. Audio sucks. Samples suck. If I don't have total tweakage control over my instrument (not a recording, an INSTRUMENT), then I say throw it to the wayside. The fact that Live doesn't support midi is the one and only thing that keeps me from getting this otherwise killer program. I would go as far as to say that Live, in fact, SUCKS because it doesn't sequence midi.

??
spoken like a true expert who hasn't actually got live?

what's more important, the music or the method?

all you show here is you're stuck to your ways and not interested in experimenting, live takes a unique approach and without fully exploring it you can't possibly be so well informed as to make such silly statements

If you one day get enough money to go to a professional studio you might notice (if you can get your head out of your ass for long enough) that the engineers use their 'tools' for the tasks they want them for - like only use logic for its audio to midi function or whatever - point is, you want a program that does everything, get a pro-tools rig (even then you'll still probably want plug-ins too), and if all you want is midi, get tracktion (80 bucks online for christs sake - http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com ) computers these days open programs dead quickly, you wont have to spend that much time waiting, and with rewire....I don't know what you're whinging about,but then neither, it seems, do you.

Gluglu
Posts: 22
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Post by Gluglu » Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:11 pm

MIDI in he sense of triggerable MIDI clips and VST Instruments that can be played via MIDI and captured on the fly as required into audio clips. This along with more MIDI controllability of paramaters such as warp and the interface in general.

Fully fledged sequencing? Nah. Been able to do that for years. Live MIDI step sequencing/looping and control is a different matter though and fits in with the Live/Instrument philosophy much better. The more you can do without even having to interact with the computer directly, ie remotely, the better in a *live* situation.

A lot of the calls for MIDI seem confused in the context of a live gig environment. I very much doubt the experience of many of the people requesting a fully fledged sequencer and their having ever used a *live* MIDI sequencer/looper with controllers as opposed to sitting at a screen looking at an arrange page (not very captivating in a live scenario) and fiddling with piano rolls building up a composition at leisure.

I voted no but not to MIDI in general just to yet another part/arrange/pianoroll/etc sequencing environment. The integration of VSTI's ( the backbone of which is already there with the FX) and MIDI control of them from contollers such as MIDI guitar and wind controllers, drum pads, etc along with the ability to fire off MIDI clips that would trigger the same or external kit would in itself simply lift Live into another league without all the Rewire bullshit/etc.

Guest

better integration with tracktion

Post by Guest » Mon Dec 01, 2003 3:21 am

i'd like to point out that the abes have been conspicuous in their abscence on the whole midi-issue.......all i'll say is if they were against it, or even considering it, they may have been more likely to haveposted to that effect....(Live 3.5?????????)

come on guys, Propellerheads gave loads in their 2.5 free upgrade, i think this excellent midi clips idea would sell the whole world live.

or instead if you like, if you integrate better with tracktion so you can pipe audio into live even when slaved to it - recording into live's one of the best things about it

tribalsound

midi latch automation

Post by tribalsound » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:39 pm

I posted this in another topic and didn't get any response, I thought I'd post it here because I think it fits. what are people's thoughts on the issue?

-----------------
A suggestion I think would be a great advancement for working live with midi controllers is to provide midi latch automation, i.e. you setup your controller to control a bunch of fx or whatever in live and then you switch banks on your midi controller and have that bank setup to control a whole bunch of other things in live, unless you have a midi controller with infinite rotary encoders, now (most likely) all your knobs are in the wrong place on your midi controller and if you move any the new parameters will jump to that value causing for very uneven mixing and generally strange results. latch automation would allow no change in the new parameter value until the controller had sucessfully "gone through" the value of the new parameter and so no jump would be encountered and the amount of things in live that could be controlled from a single controller would be greatly augmented. To go along with this, a software option to allow the GUI to jump to display the parameter being modulated on screen (with perhaps some sort of indicator as to the trigger value and where the controller is currently) would be great. this would allow much easier access to on screen information about the parameters (mostly fx) being changed without having to click on the channel or assign a keyboard shortcut to be able to view the status of the controller on screen.

what are peoples thoughts on these two issues with possibly other solutions or refinements of these solutions?
1. using banks on the same midi controller via latch automation.
2. allow easier visualization of fx control by having an option to have the screen to jump to show whatever parameter is being moved via the midi controller. (some tolerance would have to be built in so that the screen didn't flicker back and forth between two parameters on different screens if mor than one effect were being modulated at the same time).

thanks so much! I would really love to have something like this to enhance controller handling in live!

The Hulk
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Post by The Hulk » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:13 pm

If you use reason you can assign midi controls to pattern sequences much like live and pretty much get the control you guys are after. also, i've said this before and i'll reiterate that Five12.com 's Numerology already does what you guys are asking for. It's a non-linear pattern sequence and a midi controller that can control Reason, any other instrument host, and very importantly all your external hardware synths (which reason can't do.) However it's 100% midi, audio unit, mac os x. so of course we're leaving some pc users behind. the point anyway is, if you were to run Live and Numerology simultaneusly you could control all your audio and midi in a lon-linear way.

so to conclude, why would Ableton produce a something that already exists? also, i'll note, the design and usability of this program is just as outstanding as Live's. I'm sure they are watching Numerology very closely, but i'd bet they're more interested in partnering than copying.
The best, best songs are utterly forgettable.

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