Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Share your wishes for the future of Ableton Live
hyperscientist
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:37 pm

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by hyperscientist » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:22 pm

@jrhythm6960: Regarding that Seaboard video: imagine that you could record MIDI in Live (regular MIDI) but you wouldn't be able to change it - just replay, maybe change the instrument, effect rack etc. That is essentially the status of Seaboard support in Live (and worse, because you need annoying amount of tracks (16) to even do that).

jrhythm6960
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by jrhythm6960 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:12 am

Arrgh. So - it's wait around and see if they'll (ableton) do anything around this, or it's buy and learn a new DAW? What a drag..

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:02 am

jrhythm6960 wrote:Arrgh. So - it's wait around and see if they'll (ableton) do anything around this, or it's buy and learn a new DAW? What a drag..
It's only been 12 years since Ableton could have implemented polyphonic aftertouch that made its first appearance in some of the MIDI instruments of the eighties. If MPE could push Ableton to implement this finally would be great.

I'd assume great expressiveness means performance would take a hit, but that's at the core of music, isn't it?
Make some music!

Gnuus
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:51 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Gnuus » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:59 am

+1

Cannot use cymbal choke right now, moving to Bitwig!
http://myspace.com/aftronics
Live 10 Intro | iMac 3.4GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 | 16 GB Ram | Samaon Graphite 49 | Mac OS X 10.13.6 | iPad air | ZOOM TAC-2 | Roland TD11

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:05 am

Gnuus wrote:+1

Cannot use cymbal choke right now, moving to Bitwig!
How does cymbal chokes warrant polyphonic aftertouch though? My drummer certainly can use it without.
Make some music!

Gnuus
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:51 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Gnuus » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:45 am

Roland V-Drums use polyphonic aftertouch messages to handle cymbal chokes.
http://myspace.com/aftronics
Live 10 Intro | iMac 3.4GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 | 16 GB Ram | Samaon Graphite 49 | Mac OS X 10.13.6 | iPad air | ZOOM TAC-2 | Roland TD11

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:52 am

Gnuus wrote:Roland V-Drums use polyphonic aftertouch messages to handle cymbal chokes.
OK, We use SPD8. I know he uses some MIDI CC, but it's not that.
Make some music!

xer4111
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:16 pm

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by xer4111 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:04 pm

jrhythm6960 wrote:Hi,

Yes, I'm all for PAT in Ableton as well, as I'll be receiving a VAXMidi soon: http://vaxmidi.com/index.html. Though (I'm assuming) I can record PAT audio tracks into Ableton, correct?

For Seaboard Rise users, have you checked out this video? I don't have one, but maybe it can help -- https://support.roli.com/article/using- ... eton-live/

Wondering, given I have a copy of Equator for RISE (to be used as a VST), if I can make the Vaxmidi, Equator and Ableton all work together. I have a feeling that "no" is the answer.
Great on getting a VAXMidi - that should be a cool keyboard! And no, you cannot record PAT in Ableton Live. Live blocks all incoming PAT messages - doesn't even pass them through, which is one of the reasons its so frustrating - you can't even use Live with PAT in performance, let alone record it to a clip or track. For whatever reason, Ableton filters out all PAT messages, presumably to prevent so much midi data to pass through their platform.

Bottom line is that if you connect your new VAXMidi keyboard to Live, you'll see no effect from using Polyphonic Aftertouch (polypressure). It WILL register (and record) simple channel aftertouch data, but no poly AT.

The frustration for me is that even if it just allowed the data to "pass through", you could at least use your VIs that support PAT and play in real time, even if you wouldn't be able to record that data - so doing cool pad effects or polyphonic leads with just one note being pulled out - NOT POSSIBLE with Ableton Live. That's one of the reason's this thread is so long and so moldy - more and more controllers (like Rise) are showing up, but no support for this very usable feature if you're running through Live.

I've been very vocal about this as I own a VAX 77 and LOVE the ability to run all my supported VIs with PAT, but for several years now, have not been able to do so in Abelton.

I've recently gone back to using Mainstage for my live rig because it not only fully supports PAT, but several of it's own native VIs have PAT support, so it's all good with Mainstage. So as long as I'm just performing sounds and not needing tracks or loops to run, I'm better off sticking with Mainstage, which is a real bummer...hence this thread!!!

Still hoping as I really LOVE Ableton Live in so many other ways....

JuSchu
Posts: 122
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:12 pm
Location: Wuppertal (Germany)

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by JuSchu » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:17 am

Push can send polyphonic aftertouch. Why can't Live itself do something with this data?
Apart from drums in repeat mode Live doesn't use this data. Im not sure if the aftertouch information already is translated into velocity in Push before it's send to live (from my experience in programming Python remote scripts I doubt it but it's not impossible), but the hardware itself gotto have everything it needs for polyphonic aftertouch to do what it's doing.

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:34 pm

JuSchu wrote:Push can send polyphonic aftertouch. Why can't Live itself do something with this data?
Well, the obvious answer is because Live doesn't support polyphonic aftertouch. The more deeper answer is why it doesn't and if those reasons that we should assume were once understandable are still valid in the minds of the development managers at Ableton. In our minds as well.

I can see that there is potentially a lot more data to handle and that will task the CPU. But already now polyphonic aftertouch is either filtered out or ignored and it's not like you must have polyphonic aftertouch on every track
Make some music!

Thomasch
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:32 am

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Thomasch » Wed May 24, 2017 8:31 pm

I think the problem is their crap midi implementation.
It's not Poly Aftertouch at all that will be excluded by their nasty midi filtering, there are so much more basic MIDI functionality abandoned by it.

For instance System Exclusive Messages (SysEx).
There are a lot of Live useres who own and use hardware synths and other external equipment. And Ableton completely fails with a proper integration of that equipment, while other DAWs don't have any problems to integrate hardware with full SysEx Support.
MAX4Live is begging for being used for controlling hardware, but thats only possible with some nasty workarounds.

Same goes for Multiclient MIDI support on Windows.

I think they need to rewrite the complete MIDI engine! ...Which should have be done years before...

But I'm pretty sure, Ableton Live 10 won't have any of these features again...

miletbaker
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by miletbaker » Tue May 30, 2017 10:50 am

I'm posting this in all the discussions that are requesting MPE support to try and get support for this feature (so apologies for cross posting):

I had a reply from Ableton support that MPE support isn't currently planned. Their suggestion is: if we want this feature we should up vote it on the beta site. I recommend all of us that want this, do what their support suggests. It takes two minutes to register with their beta site here: https://ableton.centercode.com/welcome/

Then once you have an account, login and click on Live 9 and suggestions.

There are two MPE related suggestions

SUG-1678 (created a year ago) with 28 upvotes: https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... ee7537053a

and

SUG-0982 (created 2 years ago) with 38 upvotes https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... D}&a=v&t=1

If you want MPE support then please make your voice heard!

Angstrom
Posts: 14743
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Angstrom » Tue May 30, 2017 12:59 pm

miletbaker wrote: I had a reply from Ableton support that MPE support isn't currently planned.
8O 8O 8O 8O 8O

surely they must be joking.

thomashalp
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:35 am

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by thomashalp » Tue May 30, 2017 1:05 pm

lets all calm down and go to the beta site and upvote those topcis,
then pray to god and hope for the best (and save some money for bitwig while doing so)

thomashalp
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:35 am

Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by thomashalp » Tue May 30, 2017 1:22 pm

miletbaker wrote:I'm posting this in all the discussions that are requesting MPE support to try and get support for this feature (so apologies for cross posting):

I had a reply from Ableton support that MPE support isn't currently planned. Their suggestion is: if we want this feature we should up vote it on the beta site. I recommend all of us that want this, do what their support suggests. It takes two minutes to register with their beta site here: https://ableton.centercode.com/welcome/

Then once you have an account, login and click on Live 9 and suggestions.

There are two MPE related suggestions

SUG-1678 (created a year ago) with 28 upvotes: https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... ee7537053a

and

SUG-0982 (created 2 years ago) with 38 upvotes https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... D}&a=v&t=1

If you want MPE support then please make your voice heard!
i can not join the live 9 beta apparently, added a platform (my laptop) and there is now a button to join, but it gives me an error...

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