Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Share your wishes for the future of Ableton Live
Casual Beats
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Casual Beats » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:02 pm

xer4111 wrote:Wow - yes, definitely - the Animoog kicks ass And the implementation of poly aftertouch is brilliant.

Using multi-touch to play a chord and then drag across the keys to change the timbre - brilliant! And MIDI out means you could use this as a MIDI controller for LIVE!!!
interesting. just picked up an ipad for work. Going to have to start checking out some of these audio apps including Animoog!

xer4111
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by xer4111 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:24 pm

Okay - Ableton Team - I get it. Polyphonic Aftertouch support isn't just a matter of basic implementation - you'd have to work out how to make automation lanes for each note. And you'd have to work out how to implement GUI hooks that you have in place. Polyphonic Aftertouch has always had that basic difference from other control functions that are "one control for one midi track."

However, realize that what this really boils down to is being able to manipulate one note of a chord differently than other notes. In the composition environment, one doesn't even have to have a controller that supports this in order for it to be useful, such as for drum parts where you want to put a filter on only one sound of a mapped drum kit, where you have a sample that has duration and evolution but is still part of the kit. This is being done A LOT with sound effect maps, etc. Having controller lanes in the GUI of composition software that allow manipulation of PA data HAS been around for a pretty long time (Cubase, Sonar, Logic, etc).

So it goes much farther than just being able to play chords in a cool and expressive way.

Now that you have announced Live 9, how about moving forward and working out implementation for this? You don't have to solve every aspect of it. You just need to make it available and figure out the GUI method of accessing the controller data for each note in a midi part. And by the way, programs like Cubase HAVE special windows that open and access the polyphonic aftertouch controller lanes so they can be manipulated. It's not a trivial thing, but you do need to play up and support this, especially with the multitouch support now being widely supported by tablet-based synthesizers.

So how 'bout it?

Rex Perry
Perry Multimedia Inc

Casual Beats
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Casual Beats » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:09 pm

spot on Rex. I was holding out hope that with all the code revising/rewriting that had more than likely been done to Live 9, that PA was going to be in there.

Angstrom
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Angstrom » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:15 pm

Pushing for this

cb_mainz
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by cb_mainz » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:57 pm

Will Polyphonic Aftertouch be part of Live 9?
Ableton Live 9 and Push :: soundcloud :: tumblr :: twitter :: app.net

Angstrom
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Angstrom » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:58 pm

cb_mainz wrote:Will Polyphonic Aftertouch be part of Live 9?
Jesse says no

viewtopic.php?p=1445510#p1445510

Casual Beats
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Casual Beats » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:20 pm

Jesse wrote: ... Many of us at Ableton want Poly-Aftertouch badly, software making is a constant game of prioritization.
Best,
Jesse
well, at least there are devs pushing for it.

Angstrom
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Angstrom » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:33 pm

I imagine that everybody involved with creating Push is probably wandering around the building saying "so, did you see my note about implenting aftertouch then?" over, and over.

Casual Beats
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by Casual Beats » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:49 pm

I think it's time we squeaky wheel this feature into existence! :)

xer4111
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by xer4111 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:12 am

Yes indeed! I'm glad to see that the devs ARE mindful of this - I have a feeling that the marketing side of the company is not very well in "sync" in terms of where priorities should lie, and that the DJ community is considered the more "valued" target market. DJs are not going to care much about poly-aftertouch and are more interested in easy browsing of samples, warping features, etc.

Well, this is a perfect time to re-iterate that those of us who PLAY AND RECORD our own music are a VERY large target market, AND that we also have a lot of options. As I've stated before, I've personally spent well over $1,000 US on LIVE, starting with version 3 or so. I've spent A LOT of other money on keyboards, Pro Tools, Cubase, Samplitude and other related software. I'm part of a VERY VERY large market. I value communication and will spend time posting requests like this, but a lot of others will not. They will simply take their money elsewhere and Ableton will be losing that business.

So, yes, I'm trying to be as squeaky a wheel as I can - because this is ONE feature that I would be VERY happy to see implemented and one that will prevent me from feeling that I have no other choice but to eventually move on to another software package to solve my composition/performance/recording needs. Would be a shame after all these years....

So hopefully, the devs AND the marketing execs will give some additional priority to this topic.

I do realize that Poly-Aftertouch would be a bit of a challenge to move into the configurations/functionalities of Live, but I'm also a developer - and there's ALWAYS a simple way of solving complex challenges - like for instance, you have VELOCITY data for each note. Why not duplicate that basic structure and simply re-assign the core functionality to the poly-aftertouch controller model - BANG, you'd have a basic implementation, only instead of little vertical objects for each note, you'd have a set of controller lanes for as many notes as were recorded for that midi part - I'm happy to consult/beta test this at my own expense if it will help.

Just let me know guys - I DO LOVE LIVE!!!!

Rex Perry
Perry Multimedia Inc

etheory
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by etheory » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:21 pm

As with most things on this forum, I'd like to suggest a tiered development schedule for this feature.

I'd suggest the following:

1.) Stop filtering the polyphonic aftertouch from external instruments, and instead, let them pass through.
2.) Let ALL MIDI data pass-through, stop deleting ANY of it.

THEN start thinking about the rest of it.

Just the above would be 1.) simple to implement and 2.) go a long way to helping people understand what they would actually want of a feature moving on to an undefined step 3.)

Again, saying "I want polyphonic aftertouch" isn't useful. Explain HOW you want it. What EXACTLY you want it to be, and then there's more chance it might happen.

But starting at the basics would be the easiest option.

For instance, for me, simply being able to use the Symphonic Choirs plug-in would awesome, and achievable just with 1.) and 2.)
I spent a lot on that damn plugin, and probably 2-3 lines of source code, that shouldn't even be there, that filter out those messages, stop it from working.
That's $500 I spent on a plug-in that's not useable to it's full potential in Live, for basically no reason.
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xer4111
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by xer4111 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:47 am

Excellent post! I agree completely.

1 Definitely stop filtering and allow pass-through. At least then in live performance, we could have an instrument loaded along Ableton elements and perform using poly AT. This alone would be huge.

2. For my own input, I'd like to state that the key implementation of Poly AT in the Ableton environment would be ability to record Poly AT message and then have lanes to edit the data, the same way you can edit velocity data per note, only you'd have a data lane per note generated instead of just a vertical bar. That amount of implementation would cover, I would suspect, about 90% of what anyone would ask for.

JUST having the pass-through is a GREAT starting point, and if we got nothing more than that, it would prevent a lot of performance oriented people from feeling they have to look into other solutions, just because they could play right through Live as the host.

Thanks very much for this - maybe this will get some motion....

Rex

dr_loop
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by dr_loop » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:47 pm

@etheory
You nailed it!!

I was so excited when Live 9 was finally announced! This was the moment i have waited for sooo long, finally the moment to upgrade.
On the point of drawing my credit card I realized:

8O **Ouch!** Still no poly-touch !! (and no mouse-wheel support either!)

Since I use Live as a VST-host mainly, this for me is *the* dealbreaker par excellence.

And by poly-touch I mean: for gods sake: **let it at least pass through** !
No need to make a fully featured implementation for recording and composition (I know that would not be trivial, although it would of course be very nice)

And, dear Ableton, if you think that this small concession would generate to much pression to implement the 'Real-Thing', then make it a secret option, I don't tell anybody :?

Meanwhile i'm stuck. And scratching my head. Move on? Reaper may be?
Or do all within Reaktor, with no VST-host at all?

And asking myself: why on earth is Ableton throwing features at us, that nobody has asked for, while neglecting the *most basic* stuff?

May be someone within Ableton has patented poly-touch for his own use? Or what??

ctx
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by ctx » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:34 pm

A little less hyperbole please. You can count the number of controllers that support poly AT on one hand. Until a couple years ago, nobody had bothered building one for more than a decade, and the ones now being made mostly cost upwards of a couple grand. Per-note automation didn't exist until Cubase 6 which didn't come out until last year (to be clear, I realize it could record poly AT before that, but I mean proper per-note automation support like it has now). Most hosts still don't have such a feature. And so on and so forth - useful feature or not, this is really the complete opposite of the "most basic stuff."

That said, it's a little strange for Ableton to release hardware that supports poly AT when their software can't handle it, and it's symptomatic of the MIDI problems in Live (the other and I think safe to say more frequently encountered issue being the loss of channel information). I agree that should be resolved. Allowing channel information to stay intact should be relatively straightforward and would be a good first step. Some simple passthrough of poly AT would be nice too, but how to display it is more problematic and I'm skeptical that Ableton would be willing to half-ass it. A note expression style feature is the real answer and unfortunately that seems certain not to come in Live 9.

In any case, please, use realistic arguments when asking for this kind of stuff. I'm not trying to criticize too much, but I really think Ableton is more likely to prioritize the feature if there are more well-reasoned arguments rather than breathless, sky-is-falling declarations of how no music can possibly be written without it.

dr_loop
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Re: Support for Polyphonic Aftertouch

Post by dr_loop » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:18 am

...and the ones now being made mostly cost upwards of a couple grand
well, what's the pricetag of M-Audios Triggerfinger?
Or Keith McMillans QuNeo? (granted: does'nt send polytouch, but it can easily be converted)
.... complete opposite of the "most basic stuff."
As above posts made clear, we are not demanding a full implementation, i.e. single note automation. Many VSTs just do this happily by themselves, that's what polytouch was intended for.

I'm with Ableton if they say: 'yes, we would like polytouch also, and note automation, but we have better things to do'
But if the only need to *remove* what may be just a single line of code, and then say: '... we have better things to do', then I find this a little bit -äh- whacky.

Well, yes, there's may be some baroque reason for all of this, but then I would appreciate at least some kind of explanation, and a perspective may be.

What makes me angry is the appalling disproportion of expenditure and avail.(did I mention polytouch differs from controllers by a *single* bit)

Meanwhile, as mentioned, I just have no other choice than leaving Live, which is a real pity, since otherwise it's just about perfect for what I need.

I need a 'man-in-the-middle' programm, whether it calls itself *Live* or whatever, which does'nt just say 'No, not with me, strictly forbidden.'

Hints anyone?

(sorry for any bad english)

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