folder clips

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Stefan Jantschek
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folder clips

Post by Stefan Jantschek » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:13 pm

my vision is called >folder clips<

imagine there is a 16 bar sequence in arrangement with all its single instruments, controller fadings, cuts and edits.
(or just a boring drum loop but with a masterpiece of fx-fading in the delay channel - or maybe the few seconds of a 20 min. arrangement you wanna keep for it's brilliancy;-)

- select the parts and the time range and put that whole sequence into a folder clip that can be used in the same way like any other clip - on a new track type called folder track.

- this would be the perfect bridge between the timeline-bounded arrangement view and the non-linear session view.
it would make all time-related objects non-linear without loosing their relations.

- plus the compelling benefits for clarity and workflow.

- plus the most comfortable way to make whole arrangement-sections available via live-browser!

just imagine the chance to create >audio-thumbprints< for each liveset, an option i am awaiting for years in the whole daw-scene! (no more info-text! - writing about music is like singing about football;-)

- plus the option to rearrange whole song structures by moving SINGLE parts (think about how fiddly this is now!)

- and we could run a live-set with only ONE track displayed, no need to jump into accessible markers!

unfolding that clips could get us back all editing possibilities we loose with audio-rendering.
of course that might require to take that clips back to arrangement view...


greets,
Stefan Jantschek
Last edited by Stefan Jantschek on Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Soma
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Post by Soma » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:45 pm


Stefan Jantschek
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Post by Stefan Jantschek » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:06 am

...just partially.

my vision is more focused on the arrangement- and composition improvement than on the mixing part.
folder clips rather than folder tracks

the folder tracks are some needed side improvements with that idea ;-)

greets,
STJ

djgroovy
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Post by djgroovy » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:44 pm

That is actually a very nice idea.

Stefan Jantschek
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Post by Stefan Jantschek » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:08 pm

...rather predictable than an idea...;-)

cheers,
STJ

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:47 pm

I prefer to call them Metaclips ;)

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... =metaclips


that was 2005 , and I'm still waiting Ableton ... where are my metaclips? eh? gimme!

Stefan Jantschek
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Post by Stefan Jantschek » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:08 am

hello Angstrom,

>meta clips< sounds good, too ;-)

althought i am not shure if we're talking about exactly the same thing...
(sorry, but i can't set that much time free to do such impressive graphics like you do...;-)

the idea is more like a >capture (and insert) scene< for arrangement view!
just select a specific length, same as you would do for audio-export. it should not matter how many different tracks, midi or audio, one bar or 50, and then choose >fold to meta-clips< instead of >audio export<

the resulting clip contains the same sonic information like the rendered audio file would have - but it could be unfolded to give us back all mixing and editing possibilities!
this clips could (only) be placed to a new track type called >folder tracks< (another frequently asked feature wish)
it could further be used to rearrange complex song structures by moving single parts!
it could make complete arrangement-sections available for different arrangements via live-browser!
and it would release us from that black hole between session view and arrangement view!!

what can we do now when we have a few sessions recorded, all of them containing some great sections we would like to combinate to one arrangement?
either we get terribly lost in some fiddly mess, or we export all that good parts to combinate them from the stereo-files - loosing all remixing options.
a workaround could be to use multiple instances of live, but copy>paste does not work that way!

i hope my vision gets clearer without repeating me too much...;-)
and if you had a similar idea already a few years ago, the chance might get bigger...
but, i am no c++ coder, so i can't survey the complexity of such ideas...

ah, by the way, are there any comments common from the developers?
what do they think about some suggestions here, or are we just entertaining ourselves in this forum section?
(no offence to anyone, i love abletons, i am just new and no time to read all posts in here...;-)

greets,
Stefan

dr.wackler
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Post by dr.wackler » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:38 am

Angstrom wrote:I prefer to call them Metaclips ;)
And I usually call them Nested Clips, but every time I post about them, there seems to be not too much interest (i.e. only few replies). I've got the feeling that most people don't see the huge potential of this. IMO it should be the next big step in Live's evolution.

What you (Stefan Jantschek) descibe, kind of expands on your (Angstrom) idea in that it will be multi track and includes the mixer and all effects inside the clip (think complete sub-mixes inside a clip), and is about the same that I used to call Nested Clips.
Things they deliver are e.g. instant Recycle in combination with "Slice clip to new Meta Clip / Folder Clip / Nested Clip" and "Launch next clip at current clip's end".
Then, render/freeze in place: The deactivated original clip/track will be placed into a Meta Clip / Folder Clip / Nested Clip right along the frozen version - only one clip to handle, but maximum flexibility.
But think about this: A Meta Clip / Folder Clip / Nested Clip could be either a Arrange type of subset, but as well a Session type of subset. This way you can e.g. put a whole Follow Action group of clips into one single clip.

The possibilities are endless.....


Stefan Jantschek
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Post by Stefan Jantschek » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:57 am

hello dr. wackler!

seems like that is something wanted long time ago:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 599#589599

>Magnetotron< wrote:

>Please keep this alive because this is exactly the type of innovation Live needs! I believe it fits very well in the philosophy of the software.<

that is absolutely my opinion!
so, we are not alone...;-)

further more, IMO it's not the number of people, it's more who wants it that makes the quality of our software...;-)

...!

Poster
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Post by Poster » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:40 pm


roby
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Post by roby » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:25 pm

i agree with this idea. i could benefit from this so much. it gets very confusing when one chops a piece of audio into very small clips. it would be so much easier to move and manage all those cut ups within the arrange time line, but it would also be a great addition to the session view as well.

and it should also provide a way of editing, move, etc, the clips from within the main clip.

yeah, of course one could consolidate, but really, it is not the same...

Stefan Jantschek
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Post by Stefan Jantschek » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:51 am

roby wrote:and it should also provide a way of editing, move, etc, the clips from within the main clip.
yep, folder tracks!
in session view, folder tracks could handle the meta-clips like any other clips, but logically without the option to unfold..

in arrangement view, these clips/tracks can be unfolded to have that >arrangements< back in the main arrangement!

...and consolidate is truly something completely different! i am talking about multi-track! ;-)

oblique strategies
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Post by oblique strategies » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:31 pm

+1

very good ideas

posssu
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Post by posssu » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:54 pm

Folder clips would also make it possible to implement "Vocal combing"
Juhana Lehtiniemi - Film composer with Ableton Live

Stefan Jantschek
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Post by Stefan Jantschek » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:39 am

posssu wrote:Folder clips would also make it possible to implement "Vocal combing"
...it would make it possible TO USE ALL of my music i've made so far!
right now i have dozens of arrangements on my hard drive, each of them containig several useful sections!

tell me, how do you guys bring them all together for further arranges??

...??

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