Is it possible for Automation to have priority over notes ?

Questions and discussion about building and using Max for Live devices
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chapelier fou
Posts: 5373
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm

Is it possible for Automation to have priority over notes ?

Post by chapelier fou » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:45 pm

This is a general question, but I have precisely a problem with a device I'm working on.
I noticed that anything triggered in a M4L device via Live Automation always happens "after" incoming midi notes.
Current example : a note probability device. Simple idea, you control the % of chance that an incoming note on get through the device. If you edit the % automation lane, a value entered a the "same time" of a note is effective only after the note, which makes it harder to edit on clip automation lane, because you have to draw everything a bit early.
Is there a way to avoid this ? Tried to "deferlow" incoming notes but it doesn't work.

Here's an example :
<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
1491.3ocyZszaaiCD9r8uBAg8150fuDkbwhEXydnXOroEE8VQQfrLsCSjkLj
nSS2h9ee4CIa4HKI5H5f8hTHEMm4adwYFleLch+x7mYk9duy6KdSl7ioSlnm
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vFBE3.BQsgPzQRHsy3flcA8EMo55SQXcfUJ1jJiZjK3MvagONJv1CvFqWtpe
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8KXp6iwr9E5YhKjUqJjkptuvT+4yTSu1zW9XQ1ddkCrDcRRpKmV2d6cwFfnq
5d5Om9ePPp8lB
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

Patrick_K
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:52 pm

Re: Is it possible for Automation to have priority over notes ?

Post by Patrick_K » Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:56 pm

I had to deal with something similar about a year ago in a Live 10 M4L project. I'm afraid I don't have any great news for you in terms of what was discovered. I found no truly perfect/desirable methods for obtaining complete event order control over the MIDI activity live feeds to devices. In my case, I needed some control/insight into what order timeline-simultaneous note events would arrive at different devices on different tracks... which sounds insane now that I say it out loud... yeesh.

Anyway, you can gate notes with automation events drawn @ exactly the same point in the timeline if you're willing to live with about a 1/16384th note delay OR (strangely) having all midi clip notes arrive 1/4096th note earlier than they are drawn.

The delay one is obvious: put a delay @ 0ms between the note event and the automation-driven gate:

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
2507.3oc4aj0aiab9Y6eED5YsFy8QP6CYaZ2BzMIEc2hEENAKnnFqkqoHE3g
OZPxu8NGjTWT7vdjqapAVsiHmY9tOmQ+xkWLaQ1CphYAeSv0AWbwub4EWXej
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KfEWahnkO08T+IxXc+1JrGZg8Ge8lZUR6OiwK+0K+O.UzE5J
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>


Now, making notes fractionally too early, but automation still arrives first... honestly, I have no clue why plugsync makes all piano roll events arrive 1/4096th note early in this example, nor why automation would arrive earlier still, nor have I tested this in Live 10, so perhaps it's only a Live 11 thing:

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
2503.3oc4aj0iaia94Y9UHnmcFvCQJxh1G1zsMEnY2VzjhfhrEAxxbbTFYIC
cLG6hM+1KOjjkr0oG5ooaGfwlllTe2mj9Wt9J20oOJxcc9cNez4pq9kqu5J8
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QYEO47m1lNUC8fbNfxp7r6UcNeT..C6deKGjhm20M9HQMlNYS9AJaEcAr3JS
Do7opm5mIi07aqPenE5e106qTI0+FFu9Wu9+.xYfhzA
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

I am by no means a world expert here. Perhaps someone with deeper insights into how Live handles midi event ordering can chime in?

chapelier fou
Posts: 5373
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm

Re: Is it possible for Automation to have priority over notes ?

Post by chapelier fou » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:13 pm

Thank you very much for the answer.
To me it absolutely makes sense that the [plugsync~] example works, as it basically buffers the not messages. It should be problematic with synchronous notes, though.
Anyway, I'd still like to know if there is a way to manage priority of events without using delays.
Anyone ?
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

Patrick_K
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:52 pm

Re: Is it possible for Automation to have priority over notes ?

Post by Patrick_K » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:14 pm

chapelier fou wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:13 pm
To me it absolutely makes sense that the [plugsync~] example works, as it basically buffers the not messages. It should be problematic with synchronous notes, though.
yeah, I like the plugsync option even less than the micro-delay option for that very reason. I was surprised to see that a 0ms delay produces a smaller measurable delay than defer or defer low. If you swap out the delay in my first example with either of the deferral options, the delay is like 3-4xs worse than 0ms delay.

Either way, the idea of degrading note timing like that, however small, is a tough pill to swallow.

I'd love for someone with inside knowledge to give us a deeper rundown as to how Ableton manages midi event timing, and what options are available to us in an M4L context to do what you're trying to do, without timing compromises.

chapelier fou
Posts: 5373
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm

Re: Is it possible for Automation to have priority over notes ?

Post by chapelier fou » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:14 am

Just bumping in case someone has the knowledge.
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

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