No clip envelopes with M4L devices
No clip envelopes with M4L devices
I am dismayed to find that envelope entries *for clips* are not appearing on any of the included Max for Live devices, and do not show up in any of my own patches. Please let me know if I am wrong here or if there's a workaround (through API or whatever) - I can't seem to find anything.
I thought the idea of M4L was to provide tighter integration in to Ableton? Session level automation has been possible for years with Reaktor, and seems like an essential part of composition in Live.
I thought the idea of M4L was to provide tighter integration in to Ableton? Session level automation has been possible for years with Reaktor, and seems like an essential part of composition in Live.
Re: No clip envelopes with M4L devices
Open the MFL editor, hit the "help" Menu, scroll down to "Max for Live"
You should see a documentation browser window. Type "clip envelopes" in to the search field at the top. You should see 2 vignettes there with details.
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You should see a documentation browser window. Type "clip envelopes" in to the search field at the top. You should see 2 vignettes there with details.
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Re: No clip envelopes with M4L devices
Thank you for replying with that info, I appreciate it.
Parameters will only show up in the clip modulation list if they are set to an 'adjustment' mode in the inspector - ie, bipolar etc.
All of the devices that come with M4L seem to come with the "ablsolute" setting as default - so the clip lists won't funtion - with this quick tweak they do what they should.
Parameters will only show up in the clip modulation list if they are set to an 'adjustment' mode in the inspector - ie, bipolar etc.
All of the devices that come with M4L seem to come with the "ablsolute" setting as default - so the clip lists won't funtion - with this quick tweak they do what they should.
Last edited by LLF on Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: No clip envelopes with M4L devices
Thanks for reposting this info, really useful to know.
Re: No clip envelopes with M4L devices
Are you sure?
It sucks.
It sucks.
My tongue spits english like a frog and my head is currently searching for a comprehensive language.
And I shit here
And I shit here
Re: No clip envelopes with M4L devices
Agreed, it's not the best situation but at least they've highlighted the fix (and more importantly, I was obviously in a very good mood that day!)bulo wrote:Are you sure?
It sucks.
Re: No clip envelopes with M4L devices
At some point in the next few days I have it on my list of stuff to do to go through the Pluggo devices and give parameters some kind of clip modulation. Question is, what type? No doubt I'll not get it right for everyone.
The clip modulation possibilities with MFL parameters are quite flexible. They are switched off by default for new parameters in a device because it is up the each individual MFL programmer to decide what works best in the case of the device they are working on.
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The clip modulation possibilities with MFL parameters are quite flexible. They are switched off by default for new parameters in a device because it is up the each individual MFL programmer to decide what works best in the case of the device they are working on.
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Re: No clip envelopes with M4L devices
Hi Andrew, I'm sure at times it must seem like you're dealing with a bunch of petulant school children!pukunui wrote:At some point in the next few days I have it on my list of stuff to do to go through the Pluggo devices and give parameters some kind of clip modulation. Question is, what type? No doubt I'll not get it right for everyone.
The clip modulation possibilities with MFL parameters are quite flexible. They are switched off by default for new parameters in a device because it is up the each individual MFL programmer to decide what works best in the case of the device they are working on.
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The problem as I see it, is that many people have effectively purchased M4L as an effects bundle (after all Ableton is actively marketing the product in this manner). And because they have little wish to learn Max programming in any depth you're dealing with a very varied set of individuals from a support perspective (very different in terms of aptitude as well as attitude to the usual Max user I'm sure!).
I've mentioned this before and still believe it to be the case; the fact that M4L devices appear in the device browser with other Live and 3rd party effects and instruments means that users have an expectation for them to function in exactly the same way. For me, consistency of user experience is a pre requisite in software design and even though M4L devices are built for customisation, their default behaviour should be the same as anything else that appears in the device browser. So the fact that the M4L devices (inclusive of the Pluggo conversions) have a different behaviour with regard to clip automation is bound to grate on people who rely on clip automation within their regular workflow.
As for defaults I think you need to consider the appropriate behaviour for the parameter being automated. In simplistic terms a pan would benefit from 'bipolar' automation and a gain 'absolute'. Overall I would expect 'absolute' to cover the majority of needs (this is the case for many native and 3rd party devices). It's probably also worth upgrading the 'Automation' help subject to reflect the differences between clip and lane automation (and the default behaviours for each). It may also be worthwhile expaining the differences between the different behavior modes (I'm certain there are a large numbers of users that won't intuitively understand the difference between bipolar, unipolar, absolute etc).
It's great to hear that you're acting on this feedback to remedy the situation. I'm really looking forward to the next M4L release once it's ready.
Re: No clip envelopes with M4L devices
Bipolar modulation fits my needs 9 times out of 10, even in the arrange window. An absolute configuration requires the user to "dig" into automation lanes for trivial adjustments - i.e. a small gain change for the whole track.
I find myself ignoring lane automation quite often, for this very reason - and doing everything I can in the clip. I would personally like to see Live's internal behavior changed in this way, or, better yet, let the user decide what type s/he wants.
I find myself ignoring lane automation quite often, for this very reason - and doing everything I can in the clip. I would personally like to see Live's internal behavior changed in this way, or, better yet, let the user decide what type s/he wants.
Re: No clip envelopes with M4L devices
The main behaviour that's missing with clip automation compared to lane automation is that that it doesn't default to the devices current settings (if I set up an effect with my ideal settings and then attempt to automate it through lane automation the starting point mirrors my current settings). Clip automation behave more like a step sequencer so while it's a pain that the settings default to zero, a midpoint or relative point(dependent on preferences), this behaviour is constant.LLF wrote:Bipolar modulation fits my needs 9 times out of 10, even in the arrange window. An absolute configuration requires the user to "dig" into automation lanes for trivial adjustments - i.e. a small gain change for the whole track.
I find myself ignoring lane automation quite often, for this very reason - and doing everything I can in the clip. I would personally like to see Live's internal behavior changed in this way, or, better yet, let the user decide what type s/he wants.
I agree though that it would be great if the same level of control available within M4L was available within Live with regard to envelope modulation. However it probably goes beyond the scope of what Andrew can achieve (he works for Cycling not Ableton). Great feature request though!
Re: No clip envelopes with M4L devices
Sorry guys. I didn't notice there were a fix. I was just having a bad-reading experience.
I red (read, red, readen? read, read, read? I forgot) this post after long hours dived (?) into Max tutorials, and was so excited and tired that I, actually, just looked mainly at the thread subject.
But however, I bought M4L because my brain is needing some spicy food. And : 1° I'm way far from being able to making music with what I can make with M4L for now, so thinking about envelopes is quite optimistic.
2° ... there's a fix
I red (read, red, readen? read, read, read? I forgot) this post after long hours dived (?) into Max tutorials, and was so excited and tired that I, actually, just looked mainly at the thread subject.
But however, I bought M4L because my brain is needing some spicy food. And : 1° I'm way far from being able to making music with what I can make with M4L for now, so thinking about envelopes is quite optimistic.
2° ... there's a fix
My tongue spits english like a frog and my head is currently searching for a comprehensive language.
And I shit here
And I shit here
Re: No clip envelopes with M4L devices
Every parameter you want to modulate using clip envelopes needs to be individually changed. What a headache. Having clip automation enabled by default is beyond a no brainer imo.jon_moore wrote:pukunui wrote:... the fact that M4L devices appear in the device browser with other Live and 3rd party effects and instruments means that users have an expectation for them to function in exactly the same way. For me, consistency of user experience is a pre requisite in software design and even though M4L devices are built for customisation, their default behaviour should be the same as anything else that appears in the device browser. .
Re: No clip envelopes with M4L devices
Yeah - I missed getting this done for the content for 5.1.1
It will be included in the next update to the Live pack for the PFL content
As for having clip automation on by default in new parameters in the MFL programming environment, it is by no means a no brainer. Given that there are multiple choices for the type of clip modulation which is appropriate for any given situation, which may also include "none", we intend to keep leaving that up to the creators of devices.
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It will be included in the next update to the Live pack for the PFL content
As for having clip automation on by default in new parameters in the MFL programming environment, it is by no means a no brainer. Given that there are multiple choices for the type of clip modulation which is appropriate for any given situation, which may also include "none", we intend to keep leaving that up to the creators of devices.
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Re: No clip envelopes with M4L devices
quick question in regards to clip envelopes/parameters. I realized that when setting the type of a parameter to Int as opposed to Float, it would only me to choose "Absolute" as modulation mode which effectively hides them from the clip modulation list.
which means only float parameters can be used for clip automation right. Is this the way it is supposed to be, or am I missing something ?
nick
which means only float parameters can be used for clip automation right. Is this the way it is supposed to be, or am I missing something ?
nick
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I'm actually quite confused that 'absolute' is not actually absolute - and with all the modulation options there is still not one suitable for me - an actual modulation between a range regardless of what the current setting is.
For hardware i'd like automation between 0-127 at all times.
I'd also like to initialize my values - pan is fine in bipolar or additive with an initial value of 63, however if I want a range of 0-127 all other initial values have to be either 63 in bipolar or additive or 127 in absolute.
I can get around this by fudging the range to make it higher but then I have wasted automation width in the editor...
I'd love if someone could tell me I'm wrong and show me I've been silly and overlooked something.
For hardware i'd like automation between 0-127 at all times.
I'd also like to initialize my values - pan is fine in bipolar or additive with an initial value of 63, however if I want a range of 0-127 all other initial values have to be either 63 in bipolar or additive or 127 in absolute.
I can get around this by fudging the range to make it higher but then I have wasted automation width in the editor...
I'd love if someone could tell me I'm wrong and show me I've been silly and overlooked something.