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 Post subject: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:10 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:51 pm
Posts: 665
Perhaps I am totally missing the point here but....

Say you build a patch to apply LFOs to selected mixer object such as track sends. If you use live.remote to control them you get lovely smooth automation but the results are not saved in the automation lanes during record. When you play back the resulting section of your tune the effect you created is missing.

So you try with live.object instead which does write to the automation lanes and it works ok for one or two at once but the more live.objects you have running the more messed up it gets. Alas live.objects's communication with the API is asynchronous and the bandwidth available to the API appears very limited. It's not meant for this application obviously, it's for one-shot get and set tasks.

So you have spent £250 on Max For Live and you can't even build a patch to emulate a few looped-back MIDI clips that automated control of aspects of your set (and recorded it) for you during gigs? It would seem not. Believe me I have been trying for a month.

Anyone else tried this?

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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:09 pm
Posts: 40
Location: GWB
Although crude, here's a different approach:
Code:
<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
767.3oc6X1zbaBCDF9r8uBMb10CBL9idKc5kNSN0qcx3QFjsUKHwHIbcZlje
6Ue.NPh.imj5vgdQ1dY0tu5QqjP9gwi71vNhEdfOC9AXznGFOZjwj1vnxeOx
KCcLNEILt4Qw+ls4mdSrORhOJMlETTtXOS9DHHxu5oaYTof7Gr1Cn+T+Ryzh
LVgLEKMQDVZ0ZRdeN1JGusoLjJ32U97bjLdOgtaMGGKst.CWoBJXYnoUm..b
4T+ScgjXzlRueJptlnnLSR7tgSPofuvRS7dVaDZkzBz1db7Xcyj2Fex2iDL9
S.+oQuOzQP1QQo8AO114y6BOytV3Ikb.OUEEsWkw7.heJiY2qeFxyIKBZiEd
StfpEHDZnhkGQt4Qn2o3vUZSh4qwTzlTb84jFvnxn.c.mrFIkbxlBI94uIJo
RIVzi6zBLaak4J60yYJitqE1zvuLVhRJZuNUG0LND5uzwotReU.XIl73p+D5
VlQCtRNimf4s0yBJwxGmcUjiwIojr15sPhyEs8P7wbFESMytvoslb48Ml0ZN
rU0ls28rNYZU8madQjpkN0pYbN51y3x9L8RnGHBRGQRO8UNRBV3TsHJkIQRB
it9TF8rtYVAW8wEtbNlkkomBd41ce+h1jqx5V9tM10p9SCmnaloaUMvZKS0I
Ilkx3m2UW6B3GX2Ev9wht1UL3bmZ.9lDkRhct6H7cDm2NXwYne+o47ABMG7E
mg8gly9esYupMCg8.lACDX9U7ARLFb.ykjXUtUmMRjmAv6IIIX5KdwDGH2Ag
rKdWTtFtSDspcB8OmJ2TjPX.ICbq5sGcRC3Pnby9Fk15sk1ptUtg4hAR4lEr
a4rrANZKqP0sql2EYu1mwz108RK1oX0SWzdiAm4tdS50s9lsr1IxQgcts2G8
khUThP+3fTXOXD7sxHSPU26k9x+mEirz1aBNAqfGWMnJU..dRZIXgjPMuIeM
eBZ3yymHTwvLRRNiPkkR.bmyIwKQQ98PQ9WMEE0CEEdUUzrdnnn2fhT+3ww+
E3oXnBG
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

I think the fundamental thing to wrap your head around, if you haven't already, is that automation can be in either the high or low priority thread: for example, when you're drawing it, it's low priority, and while Live is playing it back it's high priority. There are other scenarios as well, to add to the complication.

Someone could say I'm wrong, but I believe the Live API is fundamentally low priority. If you want really smooth automation, like the audio-rate stuff you get with [live.remote~], but using Max objects, you're going to have to deal with timing issues. I'd expect these to be simplified by the Cycling folks as time goes on though...

HTH, Charles


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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:20 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:09 pm
Posts: 40
Location: GWB
Here's a slightly more interesting one:
Code:
<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
821.3oc6XtriaCBEFdsySAxKaSs7k3Dmtap5lJMq51pQQDaRBsXvxfSS5nYd
1KWrm3j5aSyLVcj5Fb74.G94iCfI2OwxdM6.haC9H3a.Kq6mXYoMoLXU9tkc
J7PLAx0Uylh9Ia82smZbIPGDZyuC35DVYcCiJ33egTd7bcbKMSKRwTBRnCj+
IirBQkUuRqYPQ7NLc6pbTrvHOufkxHIim9QfuSn7kHGWvckswDFwwLjoA1aH
LnrwU9wIZkJU+G7bqKUJLU2D6axwPB3SLRhsx6CSlnJldcj48.Omw.LQKtdt
DMdXgSgY7cLwi.O+QIwYdflRt5jn+R9DNd7I9XLA83XspxTFF0Ob33sTHoQ5
L6UfND7djibznpUYz2CyeJ3oGU9f1MwBuFYge+6vDDpQxb8KgcAC6ocksDX+
TekKEr.kuBQgqIn5piC2iRVAEhb75BA5zu3kToDKpwMo.w1TYtxd8vyxSP4p
JTlbblyBJ1f.a6F7xyPnDBNssVyEnLdaNQGxXTDUyQOmV6bwwyF6mUgT4zd6
MOUNup67F8VMizjOrrikIf0HeiitcrbQKYUWDt8XNtiHkxRpFI9KZTsPJkIf
BLit5odrothvnaGhjT8XWzgfo+PEGdqnWF.VRGDbCyHRiO8J3pGOykywrzTU
dxk6180mylbUKc1jucsYgnqSvTUwLUorvq1hVUeDyHr79q546T31wNEt95MG
7LOV7GaaVaW.+9Nz.7EAjfiseAw4susvYf6vo47wmluMSNCFBMm8+byAkaF3
M.X5O9v7yn83XDXOJWfikci7.brnG.uCmjfnW7ER88YScPHyh2Ekqg6DQKam
PujT4lhDLCHXfake8Xizv6e1zMyWcZx2hLYcKaFlKF+zMCX2jyReKh1xLTU4
x4cQ1WwyXZ41dYjhsxQwiW+c8539MyhpcLaXvfuq2zNu0m+3cmXEkvzw.RAu
rLx6YvHc6k26kd4+KmVrJ6mCNNqHOtRMU+4VfSJNAwEXp99F0pTvY04zQBUP
LEmjwvTQoF.203r3PkTz.TzEx90VRxoDfWORx+r5LFJxc.JZ7XzrAnnvQUQg
CPQQWghju7vjeiFzqUD
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:09 pm
Posts: 40
Location: GWB
Another approach would be to create midi effects that drive pitchbend data via LFOs and use them to automate controls in Live via the IAC driver. Tom Cosm has a nice tutorial here:

http://vimeo.com/8185092

This midi clip is automating the volume control in Audio track 1:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:02 am
Posts: 11
Hello,
sorry for so question,
but how could I convert (decode) the code you have attached into your posting to the working max4live patch?

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
......etc

Regards,
Nikolay


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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:14 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:09 pm
Posts: 40
Location: GWB
Copy it, then "File->New from Clipboard" in Max (or M4L Editor, I guess)

HTH, Charles


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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:05 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:09 pm
Posts: 40
Location: GWB
OK, here's something that might actually be worth downloading.
http://vze26m98.net/m4l/Automation%20Project.zip

The Zip contains a project with a M4L midi effect that writes a sinus-shaped envelope at a 16th note granularity. It's currently mapped to control track volume on audio channel #1 using the IAC trick that Tom Cosm demo'ed in the above mentioned Vimeo link.

There are probably still some rough edges, as I know nothing about Max's new(-ish) transport object, but I'll keep hacking on this, or something like it for a while longer...

Just keep in mind that writing automation in this way is (I think) a low-priority thread activity, but once the automation is written, it'll be read as a high-priority activity when played back.

Enjoy! Charles

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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:45 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:51 pm
Posts: 665
:D just a quick reply to say thanks to everyone for the replies to this thread. Keep em comin. Nice one!

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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:09 pm
Posts: 40
Location: GWB
Based on a quick look at the M4L step sequencer, a midi effect, it looks like [metro @interval 16n @quantize 16n @active 1] might be a better setting for the metro object.

Also, AFAICT, the midi effect is running in the high-priority thread. I haven't been paying much attention to sound quality, but in theory this shouldn't be any different than reading the written automation.

Another thing I was surprised about is that pitchbend info is written in a midi track appears to be low resolution, ie 0 to 127, and not -8192 to 8191.

Best, Charles


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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:48 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:51 pm
Posts: 665
OK here's something to get your teeth into, should you so wish.

Sorry for long code paste, can't do an ftp where I am right now....

Code:
<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------

10634.3oc6ctzbijib.9rleEkUnvG1sGZj3Mb34vtd8AeZNXeahI5fsDU2zi
DoBQpdlwar92tAJTOophDEYUn.6IiX2dDKRQkHQhDIR.je+8u6la+z1ea0ta
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e01temx4kk2+KYjtTPP+JnN0MP35F54panzJciQSqTM.m4zMTxHqaxdYsU6r
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-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>


It's got some stuff in it to stop the process while the controls are being tweaked but apart from that it's quite basic, and quite messy - it was tidier and right-left-bottom-top but it still didn't work so I pulled it apart a bit.

It's works ok for one instance but keep adding instances and set them to different tracks and set them running and see what happens - crosstalk madness!

Sorry for long code paste, can't do an ftp where I am right now....

ms

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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:09 pm
Posts: 40
Location: GWB
Macrostructure wrote:
OK here's something to get your teeth into, should you so wish.


Um, scary patch. :-)

Can you describe what it's supposed to be doing?

Charles


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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:15 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:51 pm
Posts: 665
Yeah, sorry :lol:

The patch is supposed to automate dubbing (or twisting up and down quickly) the sends on the track it's aimed at. It takes input data in the form of: bar length in ms, frequency of twisting the send dial per bar ("intensity") and the rise and fall times of the twist - "attack" and "decay". The patch calculates the maths to produce an envelope shape with a degree of randomness in it and then plays this envelope out through live.object to the send dial in question. Up the five sends per track can be automated and the send being rotated at any given time is chosen at random. There is a sub patch to stop the same send being rotated twice in succession and another subpatch to stop all new movement while the controls are being adjusted. These precautions were introduced to try and control the errors that were creeping in, with some sucess in various different generation of the patch.

The patch here just affects one channel at a time. I have previous versions that affected 8 at a time and were hard wired to tracks 1-8 for example. They were more stable but still not error free.

Hope this illustrates.

ms

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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:56 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:09 pm
Posts: 40
Location: GWB
OK, thanks. I'm not new to Max, but new to Live, so I have trouble understanding a bunch of common concepts. I've spent next to no time working in Session View if you can believe it!

I may or may not deal with your patch. I'm interested in automation, although leaning more to controlling it in M4L devices in audio tracks, and less so controlling the Live API via midi. But hey, you never know...

Best wishes, Charles


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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:09 pm
Posts: 40
Location: GWB
Hey Macrostructure-

Let's go back to your original observation for a second:

Macrostructure wrote:
Say you build a patch to apply LFOs to selected mixer object such as track sends. If you use live.remote to control them you get lovely smooth automation but the results are not saved in the automation lanes during record. When you play back the resulting section of your tune the effect you created is missing.

So your assertion is true: M4L "greys out" the automation lane that [live.remote~] it's controlling, but the automation is written to another lane if you assign it a Live object that is set to be "Automated and Stored." (See the screen snap below.) Don't know if you could substitute a [pattr] object for a [live.___] object, but I would suspect so.

Your M4L device that automates the Send volume can be placed in the track that it's automating, so I assume it'd be preserved if you created a clip. Alternatively, when you have the automation the way you like, you could copy/paste into the Mixer Device automation lanes in either Track or Clip and get rid of the M4L stuff.

So this isn't the absolute in elegance, but it seems to be the Max/Live way for now. Is this a big problem for you?

Best, Charles

The project: http://vze26m98.net/m4l/Live%20Remote%20Project.zip

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Fundamental problems with live.remote and live.object?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:09 pm
Posts: 40
Location: GWB
Also, perhaps I can be accused of preferring the old, but I don't think anyone's done better than jhno in patching an LFO: http://cycling74.com/download/Share/Jhno/yalfo.sit.

This was done before [clocker] supported global transport, so remember that you can do things to make it more friendly to Live uses.

C.


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