petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Questions and discussion about building and using Max for Live devices
two_masks
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by two_masks » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:10 am

FYI, Andrew got in touch with me about the jump-to-zero-on-position-change problem. I sent him a code snippet from the clip chopper, so at least C74 are actively pursuing that issue; here's hoping Ableton will follow suit.

The timing issues within M4L have made the patch largely untenable for me as well. The idea had a lot of promise when I first published the chopping code, and I really hope that with some more work we can achieve Live clip manipulation on par with mlrs buffer manipulation.

With proper, consistent timing, I'm hoping we'll be able to get to a point where mid-clip launching is reasonable, as one of the biggest deficiencies with the current clip chopper model is the requirement that clips be launched from the beginning before they can be chopped.

Here's to the future!

tchan
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by tchan » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:52 am

thanks for the update @two_masks.

hopefully this issue becomes a development priority and doesn't get lost in the mix with all the bug fixing and serato integration. i can't help thinking that the live clip chopping paradigm would make an excellent extension to the buffer shuffler device. not to mention all the wonderful new devices that can be created once the timing issues are resolved ;-)

pucklermuskau
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by pucklermuskau » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:45 am

i worry that we are confounding two slightly separate issues here. The 'jump to zero' problem is one thing, but to me the larger issue is the inconsistent response to the move_playing_position call. It needs to be able to reference a specific clip location, rather than a relative 'move x beats' response. As it currently works, we need to observe the current playing position, figure out the difference between that position and where we want the clip position to be, then send a move_playing_position command from that. It just doesn't seem to consistently produce a jump to the right place...this has nothing to do with the jump to zero effect, which is easily worked around. The inconsistency of the latter issue is a much bigger concern...
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S4racen
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by S4racen » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:02 am

pucklermuskau wrote:i worry that we are confounding two slightly separate issues here. The 'jump to zero' problem is one thing, but to me the larger issue is the inconsistent response to the move_playing_position call. It needs to be able to reference a specific clip location, rather than a relative 'move x beats' response. As it currently works, we need to observe the current playing position, figure out the difference between that position and where we want the clip position to be, then send a move_playing_position command from that. It just doesn't seem to consistently produce a jump to the right place...this has nothing to do with the jump to zero effect, which is easily worked around. The inconsistency of the latter issue is a much bigger concern...
Agreed....

Cheers
D

two_masks
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by two_masks » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:04 am

Agreed!

Nonagon

XPM
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by XPM » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:48 am

Also in agreement there.

Does anyone from c74 or ableton have any news as to whether or not this is getting looked into, and what can or is being done about it?
Image

Crubier
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by Crubier » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:40 am

Hi all, I have made a simple test patch this evening, and It really rocks,
The principle is simple : When you click "jumpp", it executes a jump in the clip, perfectly on the beaty. The move_playing_pos is triggered by a metro, with a slight offset to compensate live API delays. This allows an almost perfect time accuracy of move_playing_pos.

It seems that on my MacBookPro Core i7, the delay preceding the execution of Move_playing_pos is constant (no jitter), so this little compensation makes the job greatly.

Here it is, so you can try it, You should perhaps modify the offset, or not ! Give feedback, especially if you had to modify the delay.

Cheers !

<pre><code>
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-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

two_masks
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by two_masks » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:37 am

@Crubler what you've done is similar to the patch I wrote to allow clip chopping with the monome (which was rolled into the Live Clip Chopper: http://post.monome.org/comments.php?DiscussionID=7379).

Unfortunately, though the technique works well much of the time, it will occasionally "miss"- either the quantization pulse (which in your patch is the metro), or the machinery leading up to it (in your case a simple "jumpp" button press; in my case the press of a button on the monome) gets delayed.

As further evidence of the problem, I wrote another portion of the monome clip chopping patch to allow button presses to be recorded and played back, and this device also exhibits the occasional timing problem that afflicts the chopping patch. Monome button presses are recorded using a seq~ object, then played back through the same quantization / relative playback position adjustment patch as "normal" button presses. Most of the time this works fine, but every now and then (often every 5-10 seconds) something will get delayed, playback to get out of sync. It will usually correct itself by the time the next button press is played back, but the problem does exist.

Any chance that Ableton or C74 are monitoring this thread and can comment? I'd be happy to help either track down the source of the problem as best I can.

pucklermuskau
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by pucklermuskau » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:31 pm

so, having just been to a wedding with a buddy of mine with an in, this is the email ive sent in, with the hopes of it reaching the right ears. For the record, and for anyone to amend...

"the move_playing_position call should allow for absolute positioning in the clip, rather than the relative behaviour it has now. As it stands now, it is not possible to consistently and repeatedu; jump to a specific place in the clip. I want to be able to map a row of 16 buttons to 16 divisions of the playing loop brace. Right now, i have to observe the playing position of the clip, calculate the difference between the playing position and the desired division, and send a relative value message via move_playing_position. This produces inconsistent results, while it would be a more straightforward exercise to simply say 'move to beat 5 of the playing clip'. Ideally, behaviour similar to the chucker max object would be ideal, but acting on the loop brace area of the playing clip, rather than on a recorded buffer."
i drop on the lokeymassive

tchan
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by tchan » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:02 am

fingers crossed @lokey :) hopefully your people know the right people who can make it so!

drones
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by drones » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:45 pm

fingers crossed too!

pucklermuskau
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by pucklermuskau » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:53 pm

So, ive received this tidbit in the interim:


A suggested workaround for the time being:

"""
Tell your colleague that he has to put the samples into RAM-Mode to
get consistent results.

Also, calling absolute position jumps through MFL is actually not a
very good idea, since the playing clip will get easily out of sync
with other stuff playing in Live given that timing in MFL is currently
not 100% tight.
"""

WRT the second point, it's clear that some weird interactions between
the move call and Live's grid quantization have to be worked out. Not
as trivial as I thought!

I was just thinking... rather than calling set-play-position at all,
why not mess with the Clip Offset envelope? You're doing the math
anyway. You should be able to set relative offset over chunks of the
sample and then the clip will forever remember its juggle-ness.

I have no idea if that can be accessed in M4L, but maybe it's worth
checking out.




the ram mode is a known requirement (its a shame that ram mode can't be called using m4l, btw). As to the sync issue, that seems like it could be addressed by calling the move as the transport rolls over. But it does sound as though the timing issues need to be sorted out in order for any of this to work well. So: tighten the timing please!
i drop on the lokeymassive

TheAlphaNerd
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by TheAlphaNerd » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:29 pm

PLEASE!!!!!

Would really appreciate a little bit of attention toward this problem :D

pucklermuskau
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by pucklermuskau » Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:28 am

its just frustrating, because it really shouldnt be any different from manipulating a buffer. Its a clip for crissakes, a prerecorded buffer that is already sitting there unchanging. The chucker object has really tight timing, and all its doing is playing out of a buffer...


anyway, back to the drawing board for the moment...
i drop on the lokeymassive

mtn
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Re: petition: tighten move playing position in M4L

Post by mtn » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:28 pm

If I had to guess the reason that this isn't quite as simple as just manipulating the buffer is that Live's warp engine is running on top of the clips. However, you can always leave a clip unwarped so maybe that's not the case.

Regardless, adding my +1 to all of this.

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