Is this possible with M4L?

Questions and discussion about building and using Max for Live devices
Pasha
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Is this possible with M4L?

Post by Pasha » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:20 am

After many tests with Guitar to MIDI interfaces I have decided to explore other ways.
What I'd like to achieve is real synthesis not Audio to MIDI conversion.
Basically I'd like to have the guitar audio trigger an oscillator to produce a specific wave
(sine, triangle or square) and mix it with it. More or less the same thing that happens in Boss GT-10 multi-Fx board. The ideal thing would be that Analog could allow an external 'wave' in real time to be used as the oscillator source but it's not there and possibly it won't.
I have thought that an audio to frequency conversion is needed before passing it to the oscillator because if I play a C note the oscillator should be triggered with that C.
Is Max for Live capable of that? How much is hard for a real noobie?
Feel free to comment with things like 'Forget it dude!", "It's too complex.." or whatever.
Thank you in advance

- Best
- Pasha
Apple Desktop / Laptop
Live 9 Suite,Zebra 2.6,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
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Pasha
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by Pasha » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:33 pm

Anyone?
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stringtapper
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by stringtapper » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:53 pm

Max is capable of it and yes it could be quite a complex project for a noob I think. I worked on a patch like this in one of my computer music classes. It turned out to be just a midi trigger in the end. I could play my Stick through Max and trigger synths in a DAW. Very basic. I also remember making a quick patch that turned the midi back into a frequency to send to an oscillator. That was also very basic.

The main thing you need is the pitch-tracking external [fiddle~] by Miller Puckette (the guy who created Max). Find it here: http://www.maxobjects.com/?v=objects&id ... d_format=0

If you really are a total noob then you need to get cracking on the tutorials before you even attempt to start with the pitch tracking.
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bulo
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by bulo » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:16 am

You said you don't want a "Audio to MIDI conversion", but what you discribe is an audio to midi thing.
And yes it's doable and not difficult.
The major "problems" are the latency, and the monophonic tracking restriction.
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Pasha
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by Pasha » Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:53 am

What I'm aiming for is more or less a synthesis that implies guitar output plus an oscillator.
I thought this happens without audio to midi conversion. For example the Boss GT-10 sports a Wave Synth
effect that actually blends guitar sound with a Wave:

from the GT-10 manual:

This is a synth sound that processes the guitar input signal.

opposed to another effect called Guitar Synth:

This detects the pitch of an electric guitar and outputs a synthesizer sound.
When you use a guitar synthesizer, observe the following points.
• It does not work properly when a chord is played. Be sure to mute all the other strings and play only one note at a time.
• When you are to play the next string while a certain sound is still playing, mute the previous sound and then play the next one with a clear attack.
• If the unit cannot detect the attack, it may not sound correctly.


The first can create very interesting sounds that resemble some Metheney kind of sound.
Of course the best would be a VG-99 with GR300 modeling but you need a GK-3 Pick-up or even better a Brian Moore or Godin guitar.
However VG-99 would be overkill for me. That's why I was thinking about M4L.
In a way something is obtainable with Line 6 FX Effects Junkie Model Pack (I own Line 6 Toneport UX1)
and I have tried this pack. It's average and seems not to track pitch very well.
My understanding is that MIDI is not involved into the makin of those kind of sounds so it's not
a Guitar to MIDI than MIDI triggers the note from a synth thing. It's more something like guitar note
is detected (hence the tracking) and used to trigger a wave oscillator directly. Is my understanding correct?

Just an example : http://www.frugalguitarist.com/Sounds/I ... 0_FUNK.mp3

- Best
- Pasha
Apple Desktop / Laptop
Live 9 Suite,Zebra 2.6,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha

Pasha
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by Pasha » Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:08 am

bulo wrote:You said you don't want a "Audio to MIDI conversion", but what you discribe is an audio to midi thing.
And yes it's doable and not difficult.
The major "problems" are the latency, and the monophonic tracking restriction.
Will latency make this a pain to use?
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3dot...
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by 3dot... » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:41 am

^^^
detection is always monophonic...
as the sound gets there as a whole..
and the frequencies can't be picked apart...
this is true also to the 'guitar synth' fx..
you'll need to 'analyze' the fft of the audio coming in..
and transform the loudest frequency band to an oscillator frequency...
or a midi note..
(much like a guitar tuner)

it's not a pain to use.. just means it won't be able to detect and "transform" chords..

as far as hard to build.. I think it would be quite easy..
as there are already 'max externals' that do pitch detection...
so you won't need to build it from scratch..
latency is a bitch..
I use nothing else on my laptop when using it as an fx unit so I can set the buffer size to it's minimum
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by bulo » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:32 pm

Just use sigmund~ or pitch~ . It will output the midi note number of the played note. After that you put a [mtof] if you want the frequency. Then use and modulate this data with whatever you want. I did a simple tuned frequency shifter with this method. It's very easy.
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Pasha
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by Pasha » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:59 pm

I think this is gonna take some time. Can I save M4L work in progress objects in demo mode?
Or do you think this could be done over a single work session?
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bulo
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by bulo » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:41 pm

I don't think you can save things in demo mode.
It's very fast to do: plugin>sigmung~> sigmund~left inlet to mtof> then it's up to you... :wink:
You need to download the sigmund~ external thought.
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Pasha
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by Pasha » Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:41 am

Simply put I could shell 249 Euro out of my pocket get mad about M4L or go for GT-10 (429 Euro)
or VG-99 and GK-3 for 1150 Euro. I would get M4L primarily for this project and nothing else.
In my position what would you do? Is M4L worth it for 1 project?
Apple Desktop / Laptop
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3dot...
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by 3dot... » Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:50 am

no .. get the hardware!

there's a learning curve to max that would probably halt your progression..

imo you're better off getting an fx unit..
you just need to buy it and get on with it...
plus the Boss GT is a great unit !

of course in the long-run I think M4l is more valuable...
after building a 'guitar synth' you can go on to build other projects...

http://en.440tv.com/video.php/v/251/Jon ... SP-patch-2


http://cycling74.com/2009/01/29/max-5-g ... or-part-5/
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Pasha
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by Pasha » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:13 pm

Well,

I was thinking about getting the hardware... but it's sooo expensive and it requires Guitar modification.
I have a 20 years old Strat Plus DeLuxe. Only thinking of drilling it... it makes me shiver..
Double sided tape installation is not precise. Better drill the area between the last picks up and the bridge
However it seems hardware is the way to go. Tried NI Guitar Pro 4. Very good but no go for synth-like effects
despite the good harmonix fx...

- Best
- Pasha
Apple Desktop / Laptop
Live 9 Suite,Zebra 2.6,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha

bulo
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by bulo » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:49 pm

So... just get m4L and experiment.
Sure you can also do a lot of interesting processing without Max.
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stringtapper
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by stringtapper » Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:16 pm

I have to side with hardware on this one. I went down the road of trying to make Max patches that emulate what the Roland boxes do and always you hit the same wall: monophony.

Ultimately I have stuck with midi pickups on my instruments. Now a midi pickup combined with Max/M4L? LOTS of possibilities and I have some long term projects for such combinations…
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