Is this possible with M4L?

Questions and discussion about building and using Max for Live devices
Pasha
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by Pasha » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:20 am

stringtapper wrote:I have to side with hardware on this one. I went down the road of trying to make Max patches that emulate what the Roland boxes do and always you hit the same wall: monophony.

Ultimately I have stuck with midi pickups on my instruments. Now a midi pickup combined with Max/M4L? LOTS of possibilities and I have some long term projects for such combinations…
Thanks for this one. Of course the monophony wall is something to be considered.
Does this mean that monophony is possible more or less like I described and heard
from Roland boxes? I might not be interested in polyphony but only in solo lines.
I imagine that you have to be extra-clean to meet a successful conversion (tracking).
That's why the GR300 cosm modeling inside VG-99 is what hit my imagination.
There's no MIDI tracking there but you need an exaphonic pick-up. Every nuance (and dirtiness)
of your play is captured, like a guitar should be. Without the exaphonic pickup you get nothing.
I think that by going with split pickups you can maintain your play style because you do not have
to stop a string to play another. However with some exercise you can get satisfactory results
with monophony as well. What do you think in your experience? How's Max latency?
I think your long term projects will rock! My guess is that M4L possibilities go far beyond
one's imagination.. if only I could learn it fast. Gave a read to the tutorials... difficult
stuff. Overwhelming.
Apple Desktop / Laptop
Live 9 Suite,Zebra 2.6,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
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bulo
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by bulo » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:54 pm

Have a look at the Sonnus G2M guitar to midi converter. No extra pickup needed. You just put it in the signal chain like a regular stomp box. Its tracking looks very good and the latency ridiculous. And it's something like 100$.
It's monophonic.
Then you can play any synths you want with your guitar.
However, my opinion is that the possiblity to play a synth with a guitar is not so exiting and very musical, expressive. We have to go beyond this.
I believe in the m4l capabilities. It's a matter of time. There not seems to be a lot of people here scratching their head around this (or they don't talk about it).
But, sure something new is doable.
My tongue spits english like a frog and my head is currently searching for a comprehensive language.
And I shit here

3dot...
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by 3dot... » Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:13 pm

bulo wrote: I believe in the m4l capabilities. It's a matter of time. There not seems to be a lot of people here scratching their head around this (or they don't talk about it).
But, sure something new is doable.
...it's not a matter of belief..
the reason there's only monophonic detection..
because with the current processing power..
analyzing a polyphonic signal is quite impossible in realtime...
and is thought to be 'the holy grail' of audio analysis in general...

I highly doubt it could be achieved with MAX in the not so near future...

http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?i ... cts_editor

this is why pickups can help as they transform each string..
as opposed to analyzing the combined strings signal coming from the instruments' output..
Image

Pasha
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by Pasha » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:17 pm

Good points you made 3dot and bulo.
Let add to this that I think that the reason why Pat Metheney does not use (or so it seems)
any Guitar to MIDI stuff but rather esaphonic pick-ups that outputs 6 analog streams
that are post processed in real time after a A2D conversion (VG99) or in the analog world
(GR300). This is the holy grail of expression. Guitar to MIDI kills expression a bit
because guitars remain guitars in the end...
M4L can surely help creating a real-time syntheses patch which mixes guitar source and whatever
oscillator source triggered by it(FM or not). However the oscillator needs to get the note... so a frequency/pitch detection
is needed but not to convert anything to MIDI. G2M is very hard to find! I'll have to go to Frankfurt
for Music Messe to get it!

- Best
- Pasha
Apple Desktop / Laptop
Live 9 Suite,Zebra 2.6,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha

Pasha
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by Pasha » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:33 am

bulo wrote:Just use sigmund~ or pitch~ . It will output the midi note number of the played note. After that you put a [mtof] if you want the frequency. Then use and modulate this data with whatever you want. I did a simple tuned frequency shifter with this method. It's very easy.
I hate being a noob... but I am.
Found and installed the pitch and the sigmund objects.
... and then it's like a walk in the dark. Need to train myself and learn Max.
However I have found this patch: http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device.php?id=256
As a starting point when I will have understood Max/Msp...

- Best
- Pasha
Apple Desktop / Laptop
Live 9 Suite,Zebra 2.6,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
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bulo
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by bulo » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:28 pm

:lol: It's my patch.

There's a lot of thing to improve, and I'm not working on it right now.
My tongue spits english like a frog and my head is currently searching for a comprehensive language.
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Pasha
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by Pasha » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:59 am

bulo wrote:
:lol: It's my patch.

There's a lot of thing to improve, and I'm not working on it right now.
Well, let me say THANK YOU! Great work. Even if I do not understand anything in it...;-)
But time will help. Just installed Max 5 in demo mode...
Apple Desktop / Laptop
Live 9 Suite,Zebra 2.6,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha

Pasha
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Re: Is this possible with M4L?

Post by Pasha » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:59 am

In the meantime.... I have re-discovered Zebrify and my Guitar is happy.
I have managed to get some good Guitar synths sounds out of it.
If this is possible with Zebrify (almost no latency) I wonder what Max 4 Live could do!
When I said MIDI was not involved I was intending GR300 internal signal route:
http://www.joness.com/gr300/patent.htm

Zebrify uses a Cross Modulation Filter to mix Guitar Signal and Oscillator Signal.
Zebrify also extracts note pitch to feed oscillator and uses MIDI for the interface
that displays a virtual keyboard. The benefit is that I can bend strings without problems
and allow myself to play guitar with some dirtiness...

- Best
- Pasha
Apple Desktop / Laptop
Live 9 Suite,Zebra 2.6,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha

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