Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Questions and discussion about building and using Max for Live devices
OT
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 10:21 am

Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by OT » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:13 am

Hallo,
I would need some support.
Is anybody from you able to built up a Max for Live device similar like the Pitch midi effect within ableton live but with the difference of the ability of fine tuning in cent steps? Pitch is only able to make semitone steps also Operater is only able to do semitone steps by tuning. I do own Max for Live but I don´t have the time right now to get familiar with it into the deeps as a fulltime worker and familyfather of 3 children. For my work such a fine tuning is necessary because I want to work with different tunings which are not exactly based at 440HZ. Maybe somebody of you knows the Work of Hans Cousto, Joachim Ernst Behrend or akasha project. Their musik is based on tunings which have their origin into natural movements of the Molecules and the planets. These ultra slow or ultra fast vibrations or movements are transposed in Oktaves as long until you get a vibration the human ear is able to hear. Because of resonanz effect the listener is getting into different states of mind, relaxation and other body conditions. Akasha Project has made music for example that is based on the Hydrogenium molecule, the MDMA, THC or LSD molecules, also music that is based on planetary tunings. This musik is also good for music therapy and meditation or dancing also getting similar effects but without consuming any chemicals . Anyone interested in this kind of music you will find a lot at youtube. Also google "The Cosmic Octave".
Me I am using this music mainly in the field of musictherapy. Therefor I build up a sound bench or couch a person can lie on and has the vibration directly go to the body not only listennig but feeling.
So it would be very nice if anyone could support me and build up a Pitch with the ability of fine tuning in cent steps like the most modern synthesizers are able to do.
Thanks for your interests.
Regards, OT

Gregory Taylor
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:11 pm

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by Gregory Taylor » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:22 am

If you're using MSP oscillators to build your instrument, then creating microtonal stuff is stupid simple - you just put a coll object that matches MIDI key numbers with tuning values as floating point numbers and put the coll object where you'd normally have the mtof (MIDI to frequency) Max object.

OT
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 10:21 am

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by OT » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:31 am

Hi,
thank you for your quick answer. OK that really looks simple. I know this is probably kind of hard for you what I am telling you now, but I have no clue where to find and how to create these "simple" objects. I was watching some of the tutorials but that won´t help very much. Look I am just at the beginning with this kind of stuff and understanding is very hard for me even because my English is not so good as you might have noticed. Nevertheless I´m very pleased about your response. So the only way to get it done would be, if you could guide me through step by step in really small peaces. Another way would be that you would built it up for me and post it at the http://www.maxforlive.com homepage where I could download it and also other people could have to use it, too.
Anyway, here is a small description about what I want to use the device for, to make shure we are talking about the same thing. Operater is a very nice synthesicer with a lot of real good sounds. It´s only disadvantage is you can´t tune it in cent steps like for example Simpler, Sampler or Absynth(NI). So I would like to put the new Micro-Pitch device in front of Operater (or any other VST-Synthesizer) to be able to tune it up or down in cent steps not only in semitones (halve tone). One semitone is 100 Cents. The amount of 100 Cent up (+) and 100 down (-) would be enough.

Emagine what you also cold do with such a tool in an Instrument Rack with 2 or 3 Synths with slightly different tunings... :wink:
Thanks for your recognition.
Regards, OT :D
Last edited by OT on Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

broc
Posts: 1148
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:37 am

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by broc » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:46 pm

It can be done with pitchbend and some math including pitchbend range of the synth. Standard is +/-2 st but operator's range seems +/-5 st.

Here is a patch for pasting into an empty MIDI effect device.

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
749.3oc6WEjbaCBEcs7ofQSWjjljJjkhc5t1dC51LYxfMekPqD3QfccZlbn5
UnmrhPHaTjQVNoMSVzMXoOe973A7dxOLJHblXMHCQeDcEJH3gQAAlPUABruG
DVPVOOmHMoENWTT.bU3o08of0JS7uR32Bni98uPR0wM8xWVHVpxAkYrQ1nYB
tRx9ITECGcdS3EkfTWYhhI32TByU0vBGqy.Msp4hjpVr9Yz0MChnleGieqy.
FiSMokhMiIs6XblHCFrwYTyJQL6amMMzAqbRgAqgepjQxcVaLdyRCWE6wQip
ZNcfLYNaEbttJUYYq4JR4lIaGc2lNicfXFYN3Rw0ooteATyIggmhByxEDMGc
c+7crgjqaGeQMStGBOdhIsIw9Fy9I7zvM0uTy.Jn7FfSlkCt42lxsAkjU.8F
hRUxlsTAaeRZ4dK4Wwt4KAQVS3l3tyYCiYKdq9XblRu+2EWsxRdmnT0ylXqj
KDT8QBSoLbX2LxE7aOjpwLDbztqEi+8pZ4dYrSADTvW2LdlvficM4K0rizau
hRJT5qtTHyemxE.PyYEFR57cCqULIytkryRnfEdWyDNWXuCrgm20J.VuPvqD
97hCCCnt2ONJ1ydcQu6d1ie0W4RQWWmgQyo4mCT.hC+Pe0qiRdAixz5GOOM7
tpC3I0BJWVkEJYRG4XGUfI9kcQeVjS+qo85Yoq2jKQLt5n2kgOAew3oIeP+X
7IwQQG+9o3Ki83rg6mU5pF2mbZCgUa7YUU8wXIOGFK945VQc7+53UQaaN9J3
TYNQkZ7aRRZNcM.pEOdpuwremp32VNUQCxoJZuNUeY6G08hsnbNI7eCpCwfJ
NB+FwhJJpWKpyLI7OyBZ8LfS85AcnpsLtZPBt0+ggzz9zawuT8VSQ0WS3O8u
cY.VU71zkTrrbdyJwp3i1BMJHUL9F8pq1fRmbtiQo.2UzUawuPnoEKDp+XhN
acCEQwC.QIupHJcfHB+pgH7.PzjW.Goe4wQ+ALremWJ
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

OT
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 10:21 am

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by OT » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:36 pm

OK, thank you. I got it in. But there is no sound comming out. Here is the line up: 1. The pitch device and then Operater. But no Sound!?
I think I have to bring in midi informations from my keyboard into the device, don´t I? So I was putting in a midiin object but if I connect it to the cent Dial and play, the numbers of cents are changeing in the way I´m playing at my keyboard.
I think we are very close to the solution. This patch looks better than anything else I was trying to fix. :D
Best regards, OT

rawore
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:24 pm

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by rawore » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:37 pm

another thing to check would be http://www.xen-arts.com/2011/01/new-rel ... -vsti.html which is a vst synth that can be organized for alternative tunings. it is free. look at the manual for tuning config details.

broc
Posts: 1148
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:37 am

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by broc » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:57 pm

OT wrote:OK, thank you. I got it in. But there is no sound comming out. Here is the line up: 1. The pitch device and then Operater. But no Sound!?
I think I have to bring in midi informations from my keyboard into the device, don´t I? So I was putting in a midiin object but if I connect it to the cent Dial and play, the numbers of cents are changeing in the way I´m playing at my keyboard.
I think we are very close to the solution. This patch looks better than anything else I was trying to fix. :D
Best regards, OT
You need to keep the midiin object connected to midiout from the MIDI effect template.
Sorry for the confusion as I said "empty" device..

crumhorn
Posts: 2503
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:04 pm

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by crumhorn » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:36 pm

Here's a thing I did in PD which you might be able to adapt for MAX.

It sends each note on a different MIDI channel so each can have a different pitch bend amount.

Image
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

(Allow me to plug my guitar scale visualiser thingy - www.fretlearner.com)

OT
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 10:21 am

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by OT » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:59 pm

You need to keep the midiin object connected to midiout from the MIDI effect template.
Sorry for the confusion as I said "empty" device..[/quote]

OK, no problem, I´m glad to have your support.
So, I have been trying all kinds of different possibilities in connecting the midiin object. The result is that I have sound but when I change the value of the dials nothing happens. Where or how do I have to connect it exactly?
Regards, OT

OT
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 10:21 am

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by OT » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:09 pm

crumhorn wrote:Here's a thing I did in PD which you might be able to adapt for MAX.

It sends each note on a different MIDI channel so each can have a different pitch bend amount.

Image
Thanks a lot. I guess that doesn´t work. I can´t build up some of the objects that are included. But the idea is very interesting. Maybe we could figure out how I can get to work the missing objects.
Regards, OT
Last edited by OT on Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

broc
Posts: 1148
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:37 am

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by broc » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:33 pm

@OT

This patch shows the complete content of the device (with rewritten formula).

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
839.3oc4XsrbZCCEcs4qvimrHIkPk7CLzcs8OnayjIivRjnVaIO1BJoYxGU+
E5WVkjsA4XKdDnLclvBistxGcz4p68vvyCb7lwWQJ8b+j6stNNOOvwQOjZ.m
5mc7xPqRRQk5o4kvyxHLg2vpXBxJgd7ugXOPbu7O+1sTbUST1hLJKkHzuJrd
v7BRoDAjfxY2WPRDUKOzeDXn6D0kwgpqP48t2U+Ry4LQI8WDMP.Y30K.egnY
EZFMGIRdjxdv.c+IS0XFAzKPTmEvjUlrkh0aO9rueyDOCxvPYZx384BJJ0SE
3kACTWFtmJYJcIYjbCnlUMvKQEqwsmvp0cNJgXtWODI1WqqUWCFWoGFRPawz
2tXF.f5WNFZAIahYE7hmxIU.44Mz0adJGIA9ttBdj2ZNTHkEAo3dBCMKkXhY
IZIAeORHJnyVHHatqrV6qEek5ltfvm2Lby3lvyKvjBC4sUPLYt8fk4DBNklo
o1n9lAksjVRay91PHH4k1vGwX75D55iHd8LOxpbNSUfZkGKXTQo3oThskJSd
LU+59wi5ONksssIUnpHzI3nlzZqozb..Z+06lnaKUOxKDaoToMe43criR4rG
NDzp1+f9whx9gBKqYRE.brU0mxlyslc04tpnUA08bZ95.a.wH+TVk0oSdFES
kEpasGtk1wI7TdQUlGLBFONLFNTdWHLZ7jwp6h0CNTczwRamszCGFW0+ZptG
dXbmd3FsNhs2q18K7Tr2oSujUbEtWPgWOAN0+iWdA0+ZH.b0GTO1qH5eHdZv
cqGUNmvvwcDjt8a6SqB+GnU5hHrpOfMqMyfGswl9DQjV.BCaNcb3Fa0JJLXh
EjNQFa9uSM17Av+Sr1.fsZscisIzjhA6k0EXmVWecyuk9n8rLpnde4XsZFgg
sYYcp61Fo+QuQQ6tYKk0e0O774Mcx7xCTedkWds+9axKONnxJGtaq7n3yqdI
KUNZ4RoQUxUX.LHVKWgSA9aSsf6TshzF8gf29QunCwqWCfr0B60+CAZFpFus
.WxWTjzvflUycCKwjRAks1671MoWiI8HEiILySOxbRNWtgpIg6c8lt2WNA2C
JcdYTzdvHkPBOaLxeOYz4Si1mCRvifQxGdYveoKVgtL
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

OT
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 10:21 am

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by OT » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:00 pm

Puh, thank you very very much, it finally works!!!
I should let you know that you probably saved 1 year of hard work at a doubble CD album of ambient and relax music. So now I am able to finish it, yeah! :mrgreen:
Best whishes an regards, OT :D

OT
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 10:21 am

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by OT » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:01 pm

rawore wrote:another thing to check would be http://www.xen-arts.com/2011/01/new-rel ... -vsti.html which is a vst synth that can be organized for alternative tunings. it is free. look at the manual for tuning config details.
Thanks for the link. I will test it out.
Regards, OT

OT
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 10:21 am

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by OT » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:42 pm

broc wrote:@OT

This patch shows the complete content of the device (with rewritten formula).

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
839.3oc4XsrbZCCEcs4qvimrHIkPk7CLzcs8OnayjIivRjnVaIO1BJoYxGU+
E5WVkjsA4XKdDnLclvBistxGcz4p68vvyCb7lwWQJ8b+j6stNNOOvwQOjZ.m
5mc7xPqRRQk5o4kvyxHLg2vpXBxJgd7ugXOPbu7O+1sTbUST1hLJKkHzuJrd
v7BRoDAjfxY2WPRDUKOzeDXn6D0kwgpqP48t2U+Ry4LQI8WDMP.Y30K.egnY
EZFMGIRdjxdv.c+IS0XFAzKPTmEvjUlrkh0aO9rueyDOCxvPYZx384BJJ0SE
3kACTWFtmJYJcIYjbCnlUMvKQEqwsmvp0cNJgXtWODI1WqqUWCFWoGFRPawz
2tXF.f5WNFZAIahYE7hmxIU.44Mz0adJGIA9ttBdj2ZNTHkEAo3dBCMKkXhY
IZIAeORHJnyVHHatqrV6qEek5ltfvm2Lby3lvyKvjBC4sUPLYt8fk4DBNklo
o1n9lAksjVRay91PHH4k1vGwX75D55iHd8LOxpbNSUfZkGKXTQo3oThskJSd
LU+59wi5ONksssIUnpHzI3nlzZqozb..Z+06lnaKUOxKDaoToMe43criR4rG
NDzp1+f9whx9gBKqYRE.brU0mxlyslc04tpnUA08bZ95.a.wH+TVk0oSdFES
kEpasGtk1wI7TdQUlGLBFONLFNTdWHLZ7jwp6h0CNTczwRamszCGFW0+ZptG
dXbmd3FsNhs2q18K7Tr2oSujUbEtWPgWOAN0+iWdA0+ZH.b0GTO1qH5eHdZv
cqGUNmvvwcDjt8a6SqB+GnU5hHrpOfMqMyfGswl9DQjV.BCaNcb3Fa0JJLXh
EjNQFa9uSM17Av+Sr1.fsZscisIzjhA6k0EXmVWecyuk9n8rLpnde4XsZFgg
sYYcp61Fo+QuQQ6tYKk0e0O774Mcx7xCTedkWds+9axKONnxJGtaq7n3yqdI
KUNZ4RoQUxUX.LHVKWgSA9aSsf6TshzF8gf29QunCwqWCfr0B60+CAZFpFus
.WxWTjzvflUycCKwjRAks1671MoWiI8HEiILySOxbRNWtgpIg6c8lt2WNA2C
JcdYTzdvHkPBOaLxeOYz4Si1mCRvifQxGdYveoKVgtL
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>
Sorry, again there is a problem. It works well on single sinus tones but not at complex tonal structures. For example the tuning does not match at 2 or more different tracks. What could we do?
OT :cry:

broc
Posts: 1148
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:37 am

Re: Moleculary tunings in cent steps

Post by broc » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:56 pm

Well, first you need to insert the tuning device on each of the tracks. And to control the tuning of all devices dynamically in sync, you'd need a separate control device that contains just a Cent dial and sends its data to all other Cent dials. This can be done with Max send/receive objects.

http://www.cycling74.com/docs/max5/refp ... /send.html

PS. The control device may reside on any track, for example also on the master track (as audio effect).

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