Ableton Forum

Could you help me compile a list of developers who are selling m4l constructs? I know the maxforlive.com directory is great for sharing, and some download links send you to checkout on websites. But I think it would be great for ableton to feature on their blog or product page those vendeurs who are in business, as they occasionally promote other's sample packs, presets and devises. Until then, could we put those links here? Cheers

there should be a "paid"/"free" sections in maxforlive I think...

that would ease it up..
afaik... Ned Rush... MaxScore... Fabrizio Poce...designthemedia...Izotonic
don't know of any others.

I'm gonna publish a ( vast ) evolver controller somewhere in the future
(as soon as I figure out how to handle sysex preset dumps...all the other sextions are ready,,,)

True to form, 3dot, you've been immensely helpful.
Yeah, maxforlive.com has a filter for excluding external links, but not the other way around.
I like free, but knowing those solutions that are well-packaged and stable, with support or documentation, could really flesh out my performance template.
Evolver controller sounds ambitious! Currently exploring handmade MU modules on Liine Lemur...

braduro wrote:True to form, 3dot, you've been immensely helpful.
Yeah, maxforlive.com has a filter for excluding external links, but not the other way around.
I like free, but knowing those solutions that are well-packaged and stable, with support or documentation, could really flesh out my performance template.
Evolver controller sounds ambitious! Currently exploring handmade MU modules on Liine Lemur...

btw ... a lemur MU template will also be in the works for my device(s)

Me... www.isotonikstudios.com

There was also the guys doing the hadron stuff, and Covert Operators...

Cheers
D

braduro wrote: I like free, but knowing those solutions that are well-packaged and stable, with support or documentation, could really flesh out my performance template.

wait, are you equating commercial == good ? that seems bizarre to me.
i mean man, the overwhelming majority of the paid-for maxforlive stuff i have seen (and never purchased) appears to me complete and utter crap. bullshit patching i could do myself in an hour or two. i have been really shocked by some of the pathetically poor quality in this field.

some commercial stuff is shit and free stuff good. and vice versa of course. use your head, not an arbitrary ideal.

2cents.

pid wrote:

braduro wrote: I like free, but knowing those solutions that are well-packaged and stable, with support or documentation, could really flesh out my performance template.

wait, are you equating commercial == good ? that seems bizarre to me.
i mean man, the overwhelming majority of the paid-for maxforlive stuff i have seen (and never purchased) appears to me complete and utter crap. bullshit patching i could do myself in an hour or two. i have been really shocked by some of the pathetically poor quality in this field.

some commercial stuff is shit and free stuff good. and vice versa of course. use your head, not an arbitrary ideal.

2cents.

suddenly i feel deeply humbled and small.

braduro wrote:Could you help me compile a list of developers who are selling m4l constructs? I know the maxforlive.com directory is great for sharing, and some download links send you to checkout on websites. But I think it would be great for ableton to feature on their blog or product page those vendeurs who are in business, as they occasionally promote other's sample packs, presets and devises. Until then, could we put those links here? Cheers

i've been in comms with ableton about how they choose articles to blog, and they are often reluctant to feature links to paid devices, preferring to work more with content creators who use their native devices rather than indie punk devs (like me ). which i can appreciate.

kind of a weird relationship between abletons marketing model and cycling 74s model. in the cycling 74 faq under "can i sell my max patches?' they simply answer YES.

its a bit of a tough one. i only ever sold one device, really just to try out the digital distributor. my model for future releases in geared a lots towards the learning element as well as the actual usage of the device, so you buy the device, but it comes with videos annotating how it works, giving the buyer a bit encouragement to try and explore developing their own stuff.

the way i see it, is that there a a lot of people who bought maxforlive so that they could get more devices to use creatively in a more traditional and native manner, and there are others who bought it to develop devices that really push the concept in general.

i dunno. interesting thread though. i'd like to see how other people feel.

pid wrote: wait, are you equating commercial == good ? that seems bizarre to me.
i mean man, the overwhelming majority of the paid-for maxforlive stuff i have seen (and never purchased) appears to me complete and utter crap. bullshit patching i could do myself in an hour or two. i have been really shocked by some of the pathetically poor quality in this field.

some commercial stuff is shit and free stuff good. and vice versa of course. use your head, not an arbitrary ideal.

2cents.

Overwhelming majority? There seems to be so little on the market so would you call out what you feel inadequate so that we may raise our game?? Generalizing is useless and ineffective if you actually have a point that you wish people to take note of... You also say you've never purchased so....

Cheers
D

Little impatient right now, forgive me, as the form refreshed without my initial writing: Pid, I don't appreciate your loose-logic, off-topic remark. Most patches from others that I've worked with thus far are indeed free, stable enough in a performance setting, and without fail blow my mind.

What I'm trying to parse are those offerings that have their own check-out system, and in using the spirit of your own reasoning, should not be ruled out simply because they are shareware, etc. Your sampling is not mutually exclusive to this topic, nor is it the topic. We're all using natural language here, and we don't have the added benefit of in-person correspondance, so please resist arguing strict/fuzzy semantics if you can, especially if you already know that its not the topic at hand.

Now I know Ned Rush is being facetious so he's totally in the clear! I'm not entirely unfamiliar with your work...

I'm going to put the isotonic offerings through the paces. And I'm still staring at the screen trying to break down the controls, Ned. Love the multi loading feature, among many things.

I'd add to the list the beatwife collection.
What I'd really like to see with these afore mentioned, and maybe I'll post them myself, are end-user videos getting more in-the-pocket with their performance on these glitch machines. It's really hard to evaluate whether I can get into a cadence from the current overview videos. I find myself wanting the beats to land and stick it, at least somewhere in the demo. Also, I generally favor those that I can control assign, and actually practice at getting better.

Cheers for fueling the topic

ha!

well it serves me right posting knee-jerk reaction in a pompous way on the forum. fine, i'll run away with my tail between my legs. and apologies for the style of communication.

but before i do - @braduro, there was no fuzzy semantics going on, just misunderstanding (mainly on my part). i read your second post, not your first thoroughly enough, and it seemed to me you really were equating 'commercial' with some sort of stamp of 'quality'. i realise now that to me this came out wrong, and you were interested for other reasons (judging by re-reading your first post). as surely we can all agree that such a system of discrimination (in the sense of 'choice') is utterly absurd (in the sense of surreal). hence my reaction. the fact my reaction was a bit lame for a public forum is neither here nor there to me really - sure, maybe i am an idiot. nevermind.

@s4racen, i take back my wording and style. i would never be so arrogant (believe it or not, after my bile!) as to "name" - my opinion on individual stuff is pointless really. i was making a general 'point' about what i perceive to be a distinct lack of quality in the field, which i still stand by. i could just as easily talk about a lack of quality in the field of vst plugins, which would be kind of silly too i guess. the only time i actually 'named' in terms of 'complain' was an ircam device i thought was awful, and that as a major institution they should have known better (that thread is somewhere in the main forum i think).

@ned, at least you are a cool dude.

however, i must admit, i do seem to have a chip on my shoulder with regards the selling of max patches. which says more about me than anything else. oops. to me, it is almost as abhorrent as selling 'presets'. but those that buy are as guilty as those that sell. i cannot help it feeling this. to me max is not a programming language, it is an artist's environment for creating personal things, which the artist may or may not decide to share. if you were coding your own max externals in C that offered major functionalities within the environment, that would be a different matter and worthy of sale, perhaps. i appreciate though that the lines are blurred, and i could be full of shit. however, this would be another long boring topic and i will just keep it to myself and move on, and wish you all the best of luck in your endeavours.

</hijack>

pid wrote:ha! to me max is not a programming language, it is an artist's environment for creating personal things

Love your work man!

pid wrote:ha!


@s4racen, i take back my wording and style. i would never be so arrogant (believe it or not, after my bile!) as to "name" - my opinion on individual stuff is pointless really. i was making a general 'point' about what i perceive to be a distinct lack of quality in the field, which i still stand by. i could just as easily talk about a lack of quality in the field of vst plugins, which would be kind of silly too i guess. the only time i actually 'named' in terms of 'complain' was an ircam device i thought was awful, and that as a major institution they should have known better (that thread is somewhere in the main forum i think).

however, i must admit, i do seem to have a chip on my shoulder with regards the selling of max patches. which says more about me than anything else. oops. to me, it is almost as abhorrent as selling 'presets'. but those that buy are as guilty as those that sell. i cannot help it feeling this. to me max is not a programming language, it is an artist's environment for creating personal things, which the artist may or may not decide to share. if you were coding your own max externals in C that offered major functionalities within the environment, that would be a different matter and worthy of sale, perhaps. i appreciate though that the lines are blurred, and i could be full of shit. however, this would be another long boring topic and i will just keep it to myself and move on, and wish you all the best of luck in your endeavours.

</hijack>

Cool, understand... After spending 1000 plus hours working on Isotonik for free i chose to see if there was a market for charging a nominal fee, this seemed popular (as to my knowledge i was the first to do so) and helped me dedicate the time to improve the devices constantly, film videos and write manuals... This along with the hours of support i provide to users through facebook, email and the Akai APC40 forum... Much of what i create is not for myself but as a reaction to users requests, i believe ive created devices that cover the majority of most feature requests on this forum many of which i have no need for personally....

@Braduro i use Payloadz for all my digital delivery and found them an actual breeze to use when integrated with paypal, give me a shout if you consider them!

Cheers
D

Strange how this topic has evolved, specially thinking about pid's (a bit overdriven) comment about quality and Max not being a programming language....
On one hand I kind of understand the part about quality, as overall I agree there is a lack in quality on the entire maxforlive.com publication (many devices are just tests or made with limited experience, and discourage some as they appear and are limited).

On the other hand, regarding people offering some stuff through paid purchase: I disagree on this with pid. I have used or demo-ed many of the devices of the parties mentioned in this tread, and found them inventive, creative and, at the end, useful quality work. On my specific purchasable works (as I am in the mentioned list) the only things I would like to say, in my limited view and opinion, are that those "add value" to Live (or to making electronic music with it) and have been tested thoughtfully / documented properly before becoming available, for many to use. I have distributed quite some till now (in the hundreds) and the respond from users is just awesome. And by the way, this allows me to put some time in things I shared for free (like V-Module plugins for doing video stuff in M4L or a suite like HarmoTools for MIDI real time harmonization).

Finally my two cents about Max not being a language. I couldn't disagree more.
I programmed (and still do) in many languages (including C/C++, Java, GLSL/HLSL) and started using max only since 2010.
Max is great to prototype stuff and in the case of Max for Live to integrate Live in many ways. Some things couldn't be humanly achievable (complexity, flexibility, functionality) if Max wouldn't be Max. And the most important aspect for me: it is is not the language but the LOGIC that makes a program.
The logic, while it can be programmed in many languages, it always remains a pure product of the mind.

If somebody has chosen Max as the "language" to explain, to articulate this logic (I can easily motivate the why, in my case, I did for the things I did), so be it. If the logic is good, creative, so will the device implementing it (eventually produced through Max) be. As it is Max, with its interface and building blocks / lego-like approach, it may require some extra (brute force) cycles from you processors (compared to lower level languages), but, if done properly, it will still produce the effects it was created for. And concerning Max/M4L programs: I can tell you, you can take a Max (M4L) patch to the level of being a steady piece of software. Sure.

PS: Ableton/Cycling gave Max for Live out as an API. They did not pushed it to be a plugin format (in the way there is no M4L runtime).
As probably some other, I do not like this, but I also kind of understand the reasons (in the perspective of the two companies, Live would be in danger of being even more exposed and unreliable to the big public). This created a niche, from which M4L will never escape, I suppose, unless the companies change their business case about it. Quality is here what can make the difference one way or another. So, on this, pid's comment has some ground to put us on the thinking mood. If it was to me, I would introduce some quality "check point" before devices become publicly available. A thing I would be happy to discuss constructively.

Cheers
Fabrizio
http://www.fabriziopoce.com/

excellent responses from darren and fabrizio thanks. maybe i'll be convinced one day.

with regards programming language issue, maybe here it is me getting messed up with semantics. i'll have to think about it.

regards quality issue. i agree with fabrizio a quality control is tempting. i never visit maxforlive.com anymore as it is too draining to find the 1% of interesting stuff there. this is a real shame as i fully support and respect the effort and idea of the site. but who polices and with an editorial style approach to device sharing? i suppose ableton releasing devices on their own site would count as 'mark of quality', except that sadly some of those devices have been very poorly patched, too. then there is the 'content' - most of this has been superbly patched, and regardless of quirkyness of some devices all are worthwhile device examples. however even here there are problems, such as not enough care and attention paid to visable / hidden / mappable parameters and undo queue etc.

i have no idea really about how to solve, other than to accept (and enjoy?) the fact that there are devices by all sorts of individuals of all sorts of styles and abilities and to appreciate the diversity and 'fun' of it all. being a miserable bastard i cannot see me doing that, but hopefully others can.

the worst is, as fabrizio put it:

f.poce@tiscali.nl wrote: (many devices are just tests or made with limited experience, and discourage some as they appear and are limited).

...it is frustrating when, say, there are enthusiastic newcomers to m4l wanting to build and learn, and they do so by downloading really poor quality devices that will get them nowhere. even worse if those devices are commercial.

anyway, i should shut up now.