is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Questions and discussion about building and using Max for Live devices
mr.ergonomics
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is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by mr.ergonomics » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:27 pm

Hey,

maybe one of you guys can help me. I have "normal" live8 and max4live. I know there is some new devices and changes in max4live with live9, but I can't find anything how max4live behaves here.

Do I get all the max4live benefits when I just update my normal live8 to normal live9? Or do you need to have live9 suite for the new max4live stuff?

twisted-space
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by twisted-space » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:57 pm

As far as I understand it shouldn't be any different to how it is now, IE. if you own a max4live license you can use max4live in Live 9.

If you want to be sure though, contact support.

madlab
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by madlab » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:06 pm

this ain't clear for me neither. Emailed support but don't have the answer yet. Anyway, with this two months (at least) teasing, we've got time to gather the infos...
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stringtapper
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by stringtapper » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:41 pm

It has already been confirmed that if you own a M4L license with Live 8 that you will be able to upgrade to Live 9 and use your existing M4L license.

Seems to me that it's working the way it did when Operator was upgraded (can't remember which version upgrade [6?7?; 7?8?]) in that Operator was upgraded with new functionality like drawing waveforms but no upgrade fee or new license was necessary.
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Spectrumdisco
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by Spectrumdisco » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:07 am

I hope that is the case, after paying quite a bit for Max4 I trust that I do not have to pay any more. At least not for a while anyways

oddstep
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by oddstep » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:53 am

stringtapper wrote:It has already been confirmed that if you own a M4L license with Live 8 that you will be able to upgrade to Live 9 and use your existing M4L license.

Seems to me that it's working the way it did when Operator was upgraded (can't remember which version upgrade [6?7?; 7?8?]) in that Operator was upgraded with new functionality like drawing waveforms but no upgrade fee or new license was necessary.
The issue being new M4L content that uses objects that are introduced in Max6.

stringtapper
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by stringtapper » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:56 pm

oddstep wrote:
stringtapper wrote:It has already been confirmed that if you own a M4L license with Live 8 that you will be able to upgrade to Live 9 and use your existing M4L license.

Seems to me that it's working the way it did when Operator was upgraded (can't remember which version upgrade [6?7?; 7?8?]) in that Operator was upgraded with new functionality like drawing waveforms but no upgrade fee or new license was necessary.
The issue being new M4L content that uses objects that are introduced in Max6.
Not an issue. For one it's pretty much a certainty that M4L in Live 9 will only work with Max 6, since they have confirmed that M4L in Live 9 will be 64-bit, which means that Max will be 64-bit by the time Live 9 releases and it is unlikely that Cycling '74 will develop a 64-bit version of Max 5.

Secondly, Max 6 is already working right now with M4L in Live 8. I've been making devices that even use Max 6's new Gen environment. So I'm not worried about people not being able to use the new devices.

I really think its going to work just like I explained in the Operator upgrade analogy I made.
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oddstep
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by oddstep » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:27 pm

With operator, once you've bought it, it gets upgraded with Live's code base. Its not external to Live. Max 6 is an external program, if Live 8 + M4L users upgrade to Live 9 std, who pays cycling 74 for their access to the new version of Max? Its a complex business model, with every M4L potentially representing a significant cost to Ableton. Its not my problem, but I can't imagine how it could work... Unless c74 view max for live as a loss leader.

stringtapper
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by stringtapper » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:49 pm

oddstep wrote:With operator, once you've bought it, it gets upgraded with Live's code base. Its not external to Live. Max 6 is an external program, if Live 8 + M4L users upgrade to Live 9 std, who pays cycling 74 for their access to the new version of Max? Its a complex business model, with every M4L potentially representing a significant cost to Ableton. Its not my problem, but I can't imagine how it could work... Unless c74 view max for live as a loss leader.
You're confusing Max 6 with Max For Live. Cycling '74 has already been making their money from selling Max 6 for over a year now. Ableton sells Max For Live. How Cycling '74 makes money from that agreement is anybody's guess, but the code you're buying with a M4L license is not Max 6 but rather the code that is built into Live (its codebase) that allows Max patches to run inside it, known as Max For Live. Understanding what Max For Live actually is it becomes clear that the Operator analogy is sound.
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oddstep
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by oddstep » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:30 pm

I'm not confused, perhaps I'm not communicating clearly. M4L is completely independent of Max, ergo there is no need to upgrade to max 6. Suite includes the upgrade to max 6,therefore Live std doesn't. Live 9 has 32bit and 64bit versions, max5 for live will run in the 32bit version. This is one of the stupid threads where we make guesses and then argue about who has the best guess. I am sorry.

stringtapper
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by stringtapper » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:00 pm

Not really. I'm basing what I'm saying on what the companies have said and what I know to be true about how the software works.

Now you saying "max5 for live will run in the 32-bit version" is absolutely rampant speculation, so you're right on that count. You're not even taking into consideration that Max 6 is already a 32-bit application that will not only run fine with the 32-bit version of Live 9 but is already running fine in the current 32-bit version of Live 8 (a little detail you ignored from my previous post).

They're saying that the version of M4L in Live 9 is "based on Max 6" so they are telling you right there that if you're using M4L with Live 9 then Max 6 will need to be installed for M4L to run, which also means that Max 6 will be the editor used. They have also confirmed that if you already own a M4L license with Live 8 that it will still work with Live 9. I'm not sure how much more clear it could be that if you own a M4L license now that you will only have to upgrade to Live 9 and you will be using its version of M4L including having Max 6 installed for use as the source of objects and as the editor (which, again, isn't some ground breaking thing if you take into account that Max 6 can already work with Live 8).
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oddstep
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by oddstep » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:20 pm

My interpretation of the statement that the M4L that is part of Live 9 is based on Max 6 is that if you don't get suite you won't get the upgrade. The other statement that Ableton have made is that people who bought M4L for Live 8 will still retain the use of that functionality. We've both come to logical conclusions, you think that these statements imply that everyone will get an upgrade to Max 6, I don't. At the moment we don't have any evidence to support either guess. I hope you're right, because it would be a very generous gesture by Ableton and or C74, although I hope that the price of the Live std doesn't subsidise the free upgrade to Max6. Edit: stringtapper, I didn't ignore your comment about max 6 being able to run as a 32 bit program. I just didn't see why max 6 would be given to people for free. The whole 32 bit 64 bit question isn't important, people who bought max 5 for live didn't buy a 64 bit application, so they can't expect 64 bit functionality.

stringtapper
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by stringtapper » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:34 pm

oddstep wrote:My interpretation of the statement that the M4L that is part of Live 9 is based on Max 6 is that if you don't get suite you won't get the upgrade.
And that interpretation really has no basis. You yourself just said "the M4L that is part of Live 9". You didn't say "the M4L that is part of Live 9 Suite". See the disconnect in your own words?
oddstep wrote:The other statement that Ableton have made is that people who bought M4L for Live 8 will still retain the use of that functionality. We've both come to logical conclusions, you think that these statements imply that everyone will get an upgrade to Max 6, I don't. At the moment we don't have any evidence to support either guess. I hope you're right, because it would be a very generous gesture by Ableton and or C74, although I hope that the price of the Live std doesn't subsidise the free upgrade to Max6.
There is no "upgrade to Max 6." Max 6 is a separate product (which you claimed to understand earlier).

By saying that Live 9's M4L is based on Max 6 they are taking Max 5 out of the equation and most likely will not support Max 5 in Live 9 at all. In other words, unless you own a license for Max 5 (the actual full program Max 5) the default editor you are going to have to use is Max 6.

It's not really about a difference of logical conclusions. It's about you believing the fact that Live 9's M4L will default to using Max 6 must automatically mean that they are charging an upgrade price for it even though they have already stated that there isn't.

Oh wait, but they have already stated that they won't, that previous M4L license holders will "retain that functionality." Well since M4L in Live 9 uses Max 6 that means that you won't even have a choice about whether you're using Max 6 as the object database and editor (unless you own a Max 5 license and decide to change the Max app preference to point to Max 5 instead of Max 6).

There really is no logical basis for thinking that they will somehow make previous M4L license holders who update to Live 9 keep using Max 5 as the editor because (1) they have already stated that M4L in Live 9 is based on Max 6 and (2) none of the answers from support have suggested that there is an upgrade path from some Max 5-based version of M4L to a Max 6-based version of it. They have merely said that you will retain the use of that license in Live 9.
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oddstep
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by oddstep » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:45 pm

You're attributing beliefs to me that I don't have and assuming that I am not thinking clearly. I haven't treated you this unfairly. I hope you're right. We'll find out when Live 9 comes out. None of matters enough to get wound up about.
Edit... Ach can't give up. Tbh: I am getting Live suite 9, so its immaterial to me. Rather than fucking about trying to find logical inconsistencies with my thinking... Email ableton and ask them, if I run my current max for live in live 9 standard will i be using max 6 as an editor and will i be able to use new max 6 objects. You'll know then and you can stop making me some kind of internet straw twat.

stringtapper
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Re: is there a max4live update in live9 I have to buy?

Post by stringtapper » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:10 pm

I don't need to write them because I will be using Max 6 as the editor regardless of their answer because I own a Max 6 license. That's how I'm already using it with Live 8.
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