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 Post subject: Live 8 x64 and M4L - what's the deal?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:55 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 52
Can someone explain to me why Max For Live functionality appears to have been removed completely from the latest Live 8.4.1 on Mac?

I understand for some time M4L was not supported because it was not yet 64-bit, but now that there is a 64-bit Max (which works fine with Live 9) why was this functionality switched off entirely in Live 8? All M4L folders in the browser are gone, M4L path options have been removed in settings...

Don't want to be all conspiracy-theory in here, but this seems like a deliberate move by Ableton to force users to upgrade to 9, just to get M4L - a product users have already paid for - working again. If 64bit Max works fine in Live 9, it seems trivial to open this functionality in Live 8 x64. Makes no sense to me... Or maybe there is a completely sensible explanation. I'm open to getting educated.


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 Post subject: Re: Live 8 x64 and M4L - what's the deal?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:31 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm
Posts: 4862
Max 6 has never been officially supported in Live 8, even though versions 6.0.8 and earlier can work as the editor in 32-bit mode. Max 6.1 is the first version of Max to be 64-bit and it is only compatible with Live 9. It was a major undertaking for Cycling '74 to make Max 64-bit because they not only had to deal with the application's architecture but also had to port each and every standard Max object to 64-bit.

On Ableton's side, my sense is that making Live 8 64-bit (and therefore 9) was one task, but making the code that enables Max devices to function inside Live (what is essentially M4L) was its own undertaking, one they planned to coincide with Cycling '74's release of Max 6.1.

It doesn't look like they plan on officially supporting Max 6 (pre- or post-6.1) in Live 8. It also doesn't look likely that Cycling '74 are going to make a 64-bit version of Max 5 since the 64-bit Max 6 was such an undertaking and surely development of Max 5 has stopped anyway.

IMO it's a typical casualty of software advancement that is compounded by the fact that you've got a collaboration between two companies involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Live 8 x64 and M4L - what's the deal?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:13 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 52
I understand, but the fact that Ableton has intentionally removed the M4L path from Options in 8.4.1 is fishy... I was able to run Max 6 perfectly fine in Live 8 32-bit (minus a few hiccups), even though Max 6 wasn't "officially" supported. Obviously the 64bit interaction between Live and Max is now handled in 9, so why is it so difficult to add this to 8.4.1 as well, since it too is now 64-bit?
Seems to me they're trying to railroad existing M4L users into the Suite 9 upgrade...

After all, we've already paid for M4L. Let's also not forget that M4L was only introduced starting Live 8. Real shame that even within a single version cycle Ableton can't support feature upgrades. There really is no excuse for that. Clearly they felt that 64bit support was important enough to add to 8 (finally!..) but supporting users who've already invested in M4L? "No, you're just gonna have to suck it up and upgrade to 9." :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: Live 8 x64 and M4L - what's the deal?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:42 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm
Posts: 4862
theextravaganttraveller wrote:
why is it so difficult to add this to 8.4.1 as well, since it too is now 64-bit?


Well you're asking which implies you don't know, so I wouldn't be quick to then base an assumption that they must be doing it on purpose if you in fact don't know whether its difficult or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Live 8 x64 and M4L - what's the deal?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:57 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 52
Clearly removing the M4L path from 8.4.1 is "on purpose".


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 Post subject: Re: Live 8 x64 and M4L - what's the deal?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:01 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:18 pm
Posts: 94
theextravaganttraveller wrote:
Seems to me they're trying to railroad existing M4L users into the Suite 9 upgrade...

After all, we've already paid for M4L.

Yeah, and we paid more for it than many paid for their upgrade to Suite 9. Now, through their abandoning further support of m4L in Live 8, they made it so we bought 'The Old m4L', simply because we are not on the current Live version.

It's probably the main emotional reason I'm holding off Live 9. I feel somewhat tricked and certainly railroaded after I was led to believe that m4L would be just "Max for Live", regardless, a product in its own right. Now suddenly I have to keep upgrading Live proper just to keep m4L current. That wasn't really what I was led to believe and what I paid $200 for, a mere ten months ago. They were actually selling m4L separately right up until release of Live 9, despite it obviously already being EOL as a separately maintained product.


And of course it's deliberate. More people upgrade at minimal additional development overhead, and Live 9 gets a juicy additional featureset, brought to them by us friendly Live8/Max5-suckers. What's not to like, from Appleton's perspective?


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 Post subject: Re: Live 8 x64 and M4L - what's the deal?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:16 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm
Posts: 4862
theextravaganttraveller wrote:
Clearly removing the M4L path from 8.4.1 is "on purpose".


You know what I meant when I said "on purpose." I was referring to your contention that they are doing not because of the technical nature of it but because they want to "railroad" people.

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 Post subject: Re: Live 8 x64 and M4L - what's the deal?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:40 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm
Posts: 4862
wasoota wrote:
It's probably the main emotional reason I'm holding off Live 9. I feel somewhat tricked and certainly railroaded after I was led to believe that m4L would be just "Max for Live", regardless, a product in its own right. Now suddenly I have to keep upgrading Live proper just to keep m4L current. That wasn't really what I was led to believe and what I paid $200 for, a mere ten months ago. They were actually selling m4L separately right up until release of Live 9, despite it obviously already being EOL as a separately maintained product.


You still have functionality of M4L in Live 8. I still have my Live 8/Max 5 combo installed right next to Live 9/Max 6. They never promised 64-bit support in either Live 8 or with M4L. The fact that it is even possible with Live 8 seems to me a bonus.

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 Post subject: Re: Live 8 x64 and M4L - what's the deal?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:18 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:18 pm
Posts: 94
stringtapper wrote:
You still have functionality of M4L in Live 8.

You mean you have m4L 5 functionality in Live 8. Meanwhile, the actual m4L is version 6.1, with significant enough changes obviously that e.g. Granulator II will not run in Max 5, and some m4L 5 devices won't run in m4L 6, meaning (I fear at least), that once they are updated they too will no longer run on m4L5.


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 Post subject: Re: Live 8 x64 and M4L - what's the deal?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:06 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm
Posts: 4862
wasoota wrote:
stringtapper wrote:
You still have functionality of M4L in Live 8.

You mean you have m4L 5 functionality in Live 8. Meanwhile, the actual m4L is version 6.1, with significant enough changes obviously that e.g. Granulator II will not run in Max 5, and some m4L 5 devices won't run in m4L 6, meaning (I fear at least), that once they are updated they too will no longer run on m4L5.


No, Live 8 with M4L using Max 5 for its editor is still an "actual" version of M4L.

There are currently more devices that will run fine in Live 8/Max 5 32-bit than there are that will run fine on Live 9/Max 6.1 in 64-bit for the fact that any M4L device that uses external objects that are not ported to 64-bit will not run at all. The 3rd party developers of those externals will have to port their externals to 64-bit. It's going to be a while.

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