multi point envelope draw (idea)

clydesdale · Post by **clydesdale** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:36 am

That's brilliant, very nicely done. It occurred to me that you can even add an envelope for the Chain Select of the midi envelope rack.

A couple of issues:

- Only one Lil'Enveloper can have control of an individual parameter at a time. You can create as many connections as you want but only one seems to work.
- Something in the patch is flooding the undo history, I think maybe the trigger button

Helpful observation:

- I discovered that if you want to set a static value on a parameter that is locked to the envelope but the envelope is not running you just create a point on the very left of the envelope and set it to your desired static value.

dataf1ow · Post by **dataf1ow** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:21 am

Thanks for testing it out!

Glad to know it mostly works.
I've fixed the undo history thing, it was indeed the trigger button.
The parameter thing is not an 'issue' it's how the Live API works. Once a live.remote grabs a parameter it takes sole control over it and nothing else can interact with it, not even mouse clicks. I could use a live.object instead, but those write to the undo history (there may be a way around that though). I hope I am understanding what you're saying.

The leftmost part of the envelope window is like an initial value. an easy way to set a base value other than zero when it's not being triggered.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/207 ... loper.amxd

clydesdale · Post by **clydesdale** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:50 am

Hey thanks for the follow up!

You understood me correctly. I was somewhat familiar with the fact that the API causes that restricted control problem. I brought it up not so much expecting you to be able to do anything about it but rather to point out that the original intent from dna598 was to be able to switch between different envelopes on the same parameter (I think). Can this device be split into two devices, one that controls the parameter in isolation as a single instance; and another that holds the envelope that can be instantiated multiple times? We'd just need a way to pass the envelope value to the control device-- maybe a piggyback on a CC or something? That would also allow you to record envelopes as automation if you wanted to send it to a bounce track. This would definitely work from a chain perspective too as you'd have one rack full of envelopes instantiated in front a control device that is itself instantiated in a rack with other control devices.

Those are all great ideas you've got, I'm probably not much help since I'm only just starting out on M4L but I'd be happy to draw nice patch cords for you!

I was considering trying something along the lines of a midi filter like you mentioned so maybe I'd be useful there. That could definitely be a stand alone device on the front end or embedded in multiple chains.

dataf1ow · Post by **dataf1ow** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:58 am

It wouldn't be too hard to make a basic 'preset' functionality, so we could cut down on devices.
Basically it would store all the settings of the device (length, envelope shape, etc.) and recall them with the twist of a dial, or push of a button. That would give you multiple envelopes on one parameter, but within one device.

clydesdale · Post by **clydesdale** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:29 am

I noticed a couple of missing patch cords in the version I downloaded, not sure if it was something on my end but I fixed it and did a little tidy work.

Lil'MidiEnv.amxd

Did a little more testing and didn't find anything strange, it seems pretty robust at the moment. Also tried it with Expression Control mapped to the trigger so you can start the envelope with velocity, modwheel, pitchbend or aftertouch. It might be nice to have something like selectable retrigger which would ignore new triggers until the envelope is finished.

dna598 · Post by **dna598** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:30 am

Big Thanks to Clydesdale and Straitfire. You ROCK!

yeah this thing seems to work really nicely! I will continue to use it and report back.

once again thanks!

filter_7 · Post by **filter_7** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:19 pm

Ehy guys this is brilliant! The device is super cool and useful.

I have one suggestion for a neverending use: I think it would be great to add a preset object to save 20-30 different envelopes and recall them anytime.

I found that tutorial to do it: http://cycling74.com/2011/05/19/max-for ... e-session/

I'm out of M4L abilities, so tell me if you like the idea and it's doable.

dna598 · Post by **dna598** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:09 pm

It would be cool to be able to draw through/wipe env points using the right mouse button. Or simply double click to delete.

I am always auditioning with the left hand, so having to let go and press shift to delete slows things down ever so slightly.

Im not complaining though, this little device has really supercharged live for me!

clydesdale · Post by **clydesdale** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:03 pm

The grid functions are intrinsic to the FUNCTION object and not coded per se so there's not really a way to modify the drawing behavior. The best idea I have would be a higher end mouse with buttons capable of mapping a shift-left-click.

The device can be saved as a preset which will maintain the envelope. There are just so many envelope possibilities, which 20 would you pick?

The choice might be better left to the user. Some crazy ass configurations might be worth posting though-- I set a rack up full of envelopes and then used another envelope to drive the chain select.

dataf1ow · Post by **dataf1ow** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:20 pm

@filter_7 : We discussed getting some sort of preset structure in an earlier post in the thread. I would like to do it, but would love to hear some input on how best to implement it. How many per device? How would you recall them? with a knob, or with buttons? What about a device that has 12 (editable) envelopes that get recalled with a specific midi note? There's a lot of different ways to go about. Any thoughts?

@dna598 : I didn't do any of the drawing/UI stuff, I literally stole it from the other device, so I know very little about how the UI works for taht and how easy it is to implement different commands.

I think that making it conform to Live's automation conventions would make it feel a little bit more at home though. Not sure how easy this would be, maybe I'll take a look later.

dna598 · Post by **dna598** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:42 pm

I ve been using racks and keygrouping the device to have key-specific envelopes. Seems to work well.

I like the size of the device and wouldn't like it to be much bigger cos i am using lots in one track and in racks.

I like the idea of envelope presets if it doesn't affect the size of the device too much, you can always duplicate the device. I think buttons would be better than knobs for selecting them. I quite like being forced to draw in new shapes though.

We have parameter offsets, it would be cool to have a time offset. A simple start offset would be good, as would (getting ambitious here) a set of loop braces like in a live clip. This would involve having the envelope stop on key lift which i think Clydesdale mentioned earlier.

dataf1ow · Post by **dataf1ow** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:56 pm

dna598 wrote:I ve been using racks and keygrouping the device to have key-specific envelopes. Seems to work well.

I like the size of the device and wouldn't like it to be much bigger cos i am using lots in one track and in racks.

I like the idea of envelope presets if it doesn't affect the size of the device too much, you can always duplicate the device. I think buttons would be better than knobs for selecting them. I quite like being forced to draw in new shapes though.

We have parameter offsets, it would be cool to have a time offset. A simple start offset would be good, as would (getting ambitious here) a set of loop braces like in a live clip. This would involve having the envelope stop on key lift which i think Clydesdale mentioned earlier.

Time offset? Like a delay to the beginning of the envelope?

Also have you run into any issues when using multiple instances of the device? weird behaviors, cpu spikes etc. I never gave it a proper stress test before I posted it.

What would the point of the loop braces be? I could maybe see the benefit to workflow, but functionality wise it doesn't add much, and might be more of an undertaking than I anticipate. It would be simple to add a looping option though, which I think would be cool. noteon/noteoff style.

dna598 · Post by **dna598** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:39 pm

straitfire wrote:
Time offset? Like a delay to the beginning of the envelope?

I mean having s start marker, so you can trigger from a different part of the envelope.

straitfire wrote:Also have you run into any issues when using multiple instances of the device? weird behaviors, cpu spikes etc. I never gave it a proper stress test before I posted it.

seems to behave itself when i have been using a rack of eight of them, for some (very fun!) sound design. Havent used it all over a tune yet, but i would probably sample it all anyway.

dna598 wrote:What would the point of the loop braces be? I could maybe see the benefit to workflow, but functionality wise it doesn't add much, and might be more of an undertaking than I anticipate. It would be simple to add a looping option though, which I think would be cool. noteon/noteoff style.

By Loop braces i mean loop points. If it had loop braces and the envelope stops on note off, it would effectively turn it into an envelope/lfo hybrid.
You could draw the envelope of your choice and loop a portion it, with the looped section acting like an lfo (that you can draw).

The FM8 envelopes do have loop points so it wouldn't be beyond the remit of the original idea, but it may be beyond the remit of the lil envelope graph design.

crap illustration:

dataf1ow · Post by **dataf1ow** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:46 pm

Ok, Im seeing how these are all workflow improvements but not FUNCTIONALITY improvements.
I'd be willing to create a looping option(forward reverse, and pinpong), but the braces don't seem that important to me. You can just draw an envelope and loop it. Moving braces around at it's lowest level, is redrawing the envelope. The same can be said for the start marker.

Having said that, having envelope looping with a modulated looplength/start offset parameter would be seriously powerful. I don't know about braces, but I could put in the math to do adjustable looping and start offset in percentages. I'm just not very familiar with the GUI elements. It may be easier than I think to implement that stuff, I just have never worked with that stuff inside of Max.

dna598 · Post by **dna598** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:33 pm

Anything you do on top of what's already been done is just a bonus!

I would just say that using loop braces to obtain the best portion of a loop is easier than trying to move 25 tiny little nodes. The braces would be far more useful than a percentage offset for purposes of timing accuracy/sync. At the moment it scans through the envelope and stops on the original value, rather than stop on note off. A loop would be more "musical".

But it seems efficient and stable as it is, and it is best that way!

multi point envelope draw (idea)

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