M4L Stability

Questions and discussion about building and using Max for Live devices
dataf1ow
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:28 pm

Re: M4L Stability

Post by dataf1ow » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:50 pm

eyeknow wrote:
If everyone wrote in and complained about the convo verb issues, they'd be more likely to fix it. I guess I'll try cycling also (shrug)
But that's the thing, not everyone is experiencing these issues, and your reports even back up the fact that it is not reliably reproducable EVERYTIME.
If the company cannot repro your specific crash it is next to impossible to diagnose and fix the issue.

Rosko
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:12 pm

Re: M4L Stability

Post by Rosko » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:30 pm

Maybe ableton HQ all use macs :wink:
could there not be a better way of reporting stability issues such as these? What does an ableton error report actually say? how do you open them? they just look like a live set to me.

dataf1ow
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:28 pm

Re: M4L Stability

Post by dataf1ow » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:40 pm

every time you run Live it create a log.txt file that contains all type of information about what the program was doing when it was running (and crashing). I've spent some time using it for python script debugging.

It can be found at /Users/yourName/Library/Preferences/Ableton/versionNumber/log.txt

DOn't know how useful it will be for self diagnosing bugs/crashes, never tried myself, but maybe take a look the next time your set crashes.

eyeknow
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Re: M4L Stability

Post by eyeknow » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:17 am

dataf1ow wrote:
eyeknow wrote:
If everyone wrote in and complained about the convo verb issues, they'd be more likely to fix it. I guess I'll try cycling also (shrug)
But that's the thing, not everyone is experiencing these issues, and your reports even back up the fact that it is not reliably reproducable EVERYTIME.
If the company cannot repro your specific crash it is next to impossible to diagnose and fix the issue.
A crash report should show. It's 99% of the time here and I'm not even close to being the only one.

BojanKerkez
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Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:01 pm

Re: M4L Stability

Post by BojanKerkez » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:57 am

I can confirm eyeknow's troubles with Max and after spending hours last weekend recreating the steps that led to dozens of crashes, it's quite clear to me that the combination of 64-bit Live 9.1.4 and Max 6.1.8 just isn't stable on Windows 7.

If MaxforLive Essentials pack is not updated to the latest version (and without any kind of notification system the only way I knew they weren't was by comparing the addresses on download buttons of each pack's page to the files I downloaded before), Convolution Reverb Pro will crash Live if it is being loaded as the first Max device. The same goes for J74 Progressive and Envelope MIDI devices. Others I haven't tested. Had more than plenty of crashes with just these three.
If M4L Essentials is updated, CRP will crash Live if it initialises Max on a return track and both CRP and J74P will erratically crash Live when closing a set or closing Live.

The only solution for me was to wipe everything clean and revert to Live 9.1.3 and Max 6.1.7. Luckily, I hadn't deleted their installers from my hard drive cause they are not available any more on either Ableton or cycling74 (http) sites. Wish I'd done the same with the packs...
While this combo is not completely stable (yesterday I had a complete system freeze while using Stretta Thick, Loop Shifter, CVP and Max RingModDual), at least it is usable. Which is definitely not the case with 9.1.4-6.1.8 combo.

eyeknow
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Re: M4L Stability

Post by eyeknow » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:41 am

I haven't loaded J74's I don't believe since updating to 9.1.4. I'll get on that tonight.....

eyeknow
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Re: M4L Stability

Post by eyeknow » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:47 am

Ok, I just loaded that and it's fine. But I'm having another issue that has me going back to my original problem of getting my "old" machine back up and running (temp) and then clean installing this. I've done so many demos and such on this I think I've borked it.

I'll have the other one up and running tomorrow and sunday, live/max will be the first thing I load, and we'll check then.

musikmachine
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:56 am

Re: M4L Stability

Post by musikmachine » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:55 pm

dataf1ow wrote:If you know anything about reading the log file that Live puts out when it crashes, you may be able to see where/when the crash occurred.
I don't but i might have a look before i submit the crashlogs.

musikmachine
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Re: M4L Stability

Post by musikmachine » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:02 am

eyeknow wrote:
musikmachine wrote:Eek, i was considering J74 progressive as well.:!:

Convolution reverb crashes almost instantly when i load it and adjust parameters but have had a few random devices crash so avoid using them but PB Riser just crashed Live instantly which seemed stable when i initially tried it.

I've got in the habit of saving my proj every time i load a max device but i was thinking it was an issue on my side or certain devices coded by less experienced devs or bugs and convrev was an exception, didn't realise it was widespread.

Has anyone been in touch with Cycling? Sounds like someone somewhere needs to get together and at least try and address the instability if so many are experiencing issues. :?
Well, it certainly isn't something live is going to deal with. They told me it's not using asio4all, and that because I use a non native script for the impulse I'm sol.

If everyone wrote in and complained about the convo verb issues, they'd be more likely to fix it. I guess I'll try cycling also (shrug)
What if you disable the script and use asio4all?

I don't use any scripts and still get crashes. I had a lot when i started using Live and ableton said to disable the scripts but they still occured until i started using the beta and things are a lot more stable with 9.1.4 but my main cause of problems seems to be M4L which again i thought to be bugs that needed to be ironed out and would be fixed in updates.

Maybe it's time for a poll to show ableton/cycling how many people are experiencing issues but i don't know how far it goes beyond this thread but heck if M4L devices are causing random CTDs and reboots it would be kinda good to know what's going on whatever it is cause M4L has so much scope for live use. :)

Valiumdupeuple
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Re: M4L Stability

Post by Valiumdupeuple » Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:25 am

I use m4l on a daily basis, and I feel quite concern about the fact that this platform is somehow quirky. I think the poll is a good idea.
M4L is here since 2009 or 2010 and I think a lot should have been done to make it more stable, because imho it often still looks like a 3rd party product... although it is supposed to be an integrated Live element.

eyeknow
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Re: M4L Stability

Post by eyeknow » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:59 am

A poll is fine.

eyeknow
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Re: M4L Stability

Post by eyeknow » Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:59 am

Oh yeah, I forgot to say @asio4all. I can't believe that ableton would recommend that driver over my stock driver, but I'm going to do a clean install pretty soon so when I get the other computer up to speed, I guess I'll try the no script/asio4all.

What makes me upset though is that for the average user, you pretty much have a feel for a "bullshit" o-meter and mine is pegged currently. If all the resetting (which fraked my settings) didn't do it, and 600 of us have the SAME EXACT PROBLEMS, then I'm doubtful it's anything other than a pipe dream.

tecolo
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:21 pm

Re: M4L Stability

Post by tecolo » Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:48 am

dataf1ow wrote:Doesn't happen on my system like that at all.

So?
Thank you for very creative and super meaningful help full of super helpful advice backed up with plenty of your experience..

So just because it doesn't happen on your system you think that error is on my side or you are trying to be smart? You are not being fair to me and far from being reasonable. Especially after i listed that i use quite a lot of 3rd party plugins and hardware. I am going to repeat it for you so maybe you will understand this time :

I am using a lot of 3rd party plugins, FX and synths, none of it crashes Ableton. Read again, NONE OF IT crashing Ableton. Only Max for live devices. Someone said that it is because i am using 3rd party max devices. Well it happens with Ableton max devices as well(devices which are shipped with ableton installation). It is hardly OS thing.

Add to that this - This isn't related to music making but add to that that i have extreme configuration (two of them) because i am graphic designer and 3d artist. I totally rely on stable machine because it is my living job. Put it simply I can not afford unstable machine or badly configured OS. So add to my scenario that i am using Adobe CC (no crashing) and i am using 3d Studio Max with Vray and i am using it in production pipeline and everything run smooth. Obviously these apps have their own personable quirks which are not related to anything outside but the point is my machine is near perfect when it comes to stability. I also run Cubase 7.5 occasionally and i don't have any stability problems and all of my plugins which are loading fine in Ableton are loading fine in Cubase as well.

You can continue to toy with my issues if you want but as far as i can see other are reporting same thing.

you can defend Max stability because on your system it is okay but for me, if everything else runs super smooth (and i do have a lot of other things here) and just Max is giving me problems - sorry i am pointing it out to Max to blame. Especially after seeing other have same issues. And keep in mind i am not attacking Max but at this point of time it is unreasonable to call it stable therefore in my view it is not a tool to make professional job done properly

Rosko
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:12 pm

Re: M4L Stability

Post by Rosko » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:47 am

Right I think the best way to move forward with this is to get a poll going. a.)to establish if this is widespread b.)to try and reveal any patterns. Hopefully get a big enough sample to be useful. I will link into the beta forum as well. it's quite odd really that I just excepted the crashes I have as a qwerk of m4l and just made sure I saved often. I think part of that was it was something new to live and it seemed so complex I sort of expected it. But it looks like others do not have issues, not sure if this is the minority or majority but could point to compatability issues which could hopefully be addressed.

Rosko
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:12 pm

Re: M4L Stability

Post by Rosko » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:12 am

I see no option to make a poll? Can anyone help?

Was thinking something like

We are trying to establish weather M4L has a common stability issue & if that is related to any other hardware of software we use. Please answer this if you use M4L devices in your project. (if you don't get crashes but also rarely use M4L devices its probably not helpful to enter poll due to the random nature of crashes)
For me M4l crashes randomly to desktop when either loading a device or changing parameter on device. I also suspect M4L causes crashes when loading a live set but I also realise that it is difficult to establish if it is definitely m4l causing this so i have left it out. If it crashes in a different way then answer 'M4L crashes but not as described' & state how in comments with OS & any other useful info. For everyone who enters it might be helpful to list the devices you use in the reply box although for me its whatever i use often but could still highlight more stable devices than others.
I will assume people who answer this have a stable DAW & have no other major issues with other software/hardware including Live itself & that everything is up to date.

M4l is stable for me & i use windows
M4l is stable for me & i use osx
M4l crashes as described & i use windows
M4l crashes as described & i use osx
M4L crashes but not as described above

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